Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
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Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Hi.
For the past few months I’ve been practicing switching hands when I sharpen and it feels much less foreign now as the sharpening muscles on my left side are forming. I do this to achieve a uniform finish on both sides of wide bevel knives. I could not get the left side to look as good as the right side unless I used the Edge Pro. So now that problem is going away but I still need to work on about 30 knives or more for it to feel natural.
I could not figure out why when switching hands it improves the look of the bevel in the left side. It dawned on me that it has to be a result of duplicating the scratch patterns on both sides. Is this correct?
For the past few months I’ve been practicing switching hands when I sharpen and it feels much less foreign now as the sharpening muscles on my left side are forming. I do this to achieve a uniform finish on both sides of wide bevel knives. I could not get the left side to look as good as the right side unless I used the Edge Pro. So now that problem is going away but I still need to work on about 30 knives or more for it to feel natural.
I could not figure out why when switching hands it improves the look of the bevel in the left side. It dawned on me that it has to be a result of duplicating the scratch patterns on both sides. Is this correct?
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
For me I can’t get the exact degree using the same hand. It would be more like 60/40 vs 50/50. But really made no difference in sharpness or cutting ability. So I just stopped worrying about it
Can’t get the same sharpness switching hands. Guess too impatient to develop muscle memory with my left hand.
Can’t get the same sharpness switching hands. Guess too impatient to develop muscle memory with my left hand.
Home cook that enjoys sharp knives.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
I try sometimes to use both hands but that requires a lot of practice to obtain muscle memory and hence,requires more knives of which I don't own to sharpen.My knife is 45 degrees to the stone sharpening the right side and perpendicular to the stone when sharpening the left side.Sure,my scratch pattern is different but doesn't mean anything to me.My knives are all pretty darn sharp.I do seem to have a very good pull through on paper towel test and somewhat lacking on a push cut and I wonder if it is because my scratch pattern is different.Maybe switching hands would allow me to get a better push cut edge but I don't know.
Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
I'm new to this in general, so neither way really feels natural. That said, I am much more inconsistent using one hand. I'm still trying to figure this all out, but switching hands and using edge leading strokes seems to be the way I am going to stick with.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Angle of approach, maybe? My scratch pattern differs, wildly, from side to side when I use the same hand for polishing wide bevels. For narrow bevels, I too get more of a 60/40 thing going when using one hand, which is always. I have tried and tried and tried to use two hands and I just can't do it (accident when I was younger and I have a hard time doing more than holding a soda with my left hand...lol). Honestly, I have not noticed any issues in use so far as I can tell but at this point I am biased to my own edges.
As for the edge pro, yeah, both edges still looked different when I used one, which I guess is due to a difference in pressure from being forced to switch hands. In my case it is probably a huge difference in pressure with my less than stellar ability to control such things from the left arm. However I can see where such a thing is advantageous to others.
Though a moot point for me I am interested in seeing how this turns out.
As for the edge pro, yeah, both edges still looked different when I used one, which I guess is due to a difference in pressure from being forced to switch hands. In my case it is probably a huge difference in pressure with my less than stellar ability to control such things from the left arm. However I can see where such a thing is advantageous to others.
Though a moot point for me I am interested in seeing how this turns out.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
This has nothing to do with the actual sharpening piece, it’s an aesthetics issue only and applicable to wide bevels like a Takeda and some folders.
Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Interesting thread... on the stones I have a strong tendency to create a wider bevel on the right side. Must be due to using too acute of an approach. Because I start on the right and have created a burr I leave the left side with a narrower bevel to not take off more steel than necessary.
That being said, I have seen this happen on either side using an Edge Pro which I have assumed is due to the variance of the angles already on the knife.
I have found though that this wider bevel issue for me is more pronounced on large (10”) western style knives like Dexter, Henckels, etc.
I’m looking forward to following this thread and learning more.
That being said, I have seen this happen on either side using an Edge Pro which I have assumed is due to the variance of the angles already on the knife.
I have found though that this wider bevel issue for me is more pronounced on large (10”) western style knives like Dexter, Henckels, etc.
I’m looking forward to following this thread and learning more.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
If it's about finish on a wide bevel, I wonder if the different angles of approach giving different scratch patterns, would reflect the light differently.
Using standard technique on the EP you're pretty much forced into a common angle of approach and on stones this is repeated by sharpening ambidextrously.
So it seems quite possible to me there might be a difference if you're just using your dominant hand to sharpen both sides. It would be interesting to see if when you got to more of a polished edge (8k / 10+k) that the difference was the same or less. If it was an effect due to scratch pattern, I would think that the effect would lessen as you got closer to a polished finish????
Like Kit & Jason, I'm keen to learn from others have to say as well.
Using standard technique on the EP you're pretty much forced into a common angle of approach and on stones this is repeated by sharpening ambidextrously.
So it seems quite possible to me there might be a difference if you're just using your dominant hand to sharpen both sides. It would be interesting to see if when you got to more of a polished edge (8k / 10+k) that the difference was the same or less. If it was an effect due to scratch pattern, I would think that the effect would lessen as you got closer to a polished finish????
Like Kit & Jason, I'm keen to learn from others have to say as well.
Cheers Grant
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
I think that makes sense, to me anyway, Grant. As I said in my above post, I too notice a huge difference in scratch patterns when using my dominant hand, rather flipping wide bevels. However, as I progress up, and for me that is for a kasumi finish, this becomes less noticeable. Mirror polish on more narrow bevels or pocket knives, I'd not notice at all as I tend to polish them on to sub micron. Or simply don't care--heh. Obviously different strokes there, pun intended.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Interesting thread, Peter.
I'm less of a sharpener than a pianist. I've learned much more about how my hands operate separately on the keyboard than on the stones, but I still feel like a lot of the perceptual abilities I've developed from my instrument help me on the stones.
I searched for one of your videos to refresh my memory of your normal sharpening habits. I can see how your scratch patterns could be improved by switching hands. Here are a couple possible reasons, but keep in mind that these are based on your videos and that I am FULLY aware that you probably sharpen a bit differently when not distracted by talking for the camera!
1) When the edge is facing you, you tend to start with the tip of the knife using edge-training pressure with longer strokes across the edge. In general, the "acceleration" and sweep of the knife with these strokes is considerably more dramatic and parallel with the spine than when you flip the knife, as when the edge is away from you, you tend to start at the heel and work in discrete sections with shorter perpendicular strokes. To me, this is the primary issue: not only is the angle of approach different when you use the same hand, but the length of the stroke AND the acceleration is different, all of which would lead to changes in pressure, angle, and vector in terms of scratches and degree of polish/abrasion. To be clear: I consider these variations natural and "traditional"—they are not "flaws."
2) While it matters less than above, you also adjust your angles differently when you start at the tip versus the heel. When you start at the tip, you tend to adjust the spine more to achieve tip contact with the stone, but when you flip and start at the heel, you tend to use more "pressure" to maintain contact when you get to the tip and less twisting and lifting the spine (as is common). While this doesn't immediately apply to wide bevels, it DOES reflect that you are probably using a different type of pressure combined (again) with a different type of stroke/acceleration, both of which could lead to a change in scratch patterns.
I like your approach to sharpening, and I think the strength of your videos and explanations is that they demonstrate your focus on the points of contact with the stone over and above these other variables. At the same time, these observations reveal to me how changing hands might not only benefit your scratch patterns at mid- and lower grits, but how they might also affect your bevels on narrow-bevel knives over time, at least cosmetically. (As Kit makes clear, you'll notice any such scratch patterns more on lower grits than on higher ones.) You clearly have excellent control over the edge contact with the stone, but it has always seemed pretty obvious to me that MOST people who use one hand to sharpen (well, one "primary" hand) tend to have considerably different stroke patterns (and angles of approach) when sharpening. I can imagine that switching hands would only increase the potential options to achieve cosmetic equivalence on each side of the knife while also still maintaining a consistent edge profile and apex with some practice.
I realize this sounds like I'm advocating for switching hands, but I don't mean to. To be frank, I think a lot of Japanese sharpeners that I've watched videos of (admittedly very few) have single-hand techniques that are excellent for edge consistency on asymmetrical knives in particular. But in those cases, it is also often a benefit to have a different angle of approach on each side of the knife and to have a long, consistent stroke across the entire edge with each stroke. With typical gyutos, the goals are sometimes different. Depending on the sharpener and the knife, I can see single-handed or switching hands as beneficial for certain results. In this particular case, I'm just looking for the aspects of your usual technique that I think might be fundamentally different when you switch hands as a starting point for self-reflection. Since I started by switching hands, I find myself constantly trying (and fumbling) to use more single-hand sharpening strokes to try to achieve longer strokes along a greater portion of the edge. It isn't my strength, though, so usually I just try to make the most of the advantages to switching hands as a I can! Haha.
I'm less of a sharpener than a pianist. I've learned much more about how my hands operate separately on the keyboard than on the stones, but I still feel like a lot of the perceptual abilities I've developed from my instrument help me on the stones.
I searched for one of your videos to refresh my memory of your normal sharpening habits. I can see how your scratch patterns could be improved by switching hands. Here are a couple possible reasons, but keep in mind that these are based on your videos and that I am FULLY aware that you probably sharpen a bit differently when not distracted by talking for the camera!
1) When the edge is facing you, you tend to start with the tip of the knife using edge-training pressure with longer strokes across the edge. In general, the "acceleration" and sweep of the knife with these strokes is considerably more dramatic and parallel with the spine than when you flip the knife, as when the edge is away from you, you tend to start at the heel and work in discrete sections with shorter perpendicular strokes. To me, this is the primary issue: not only is the angle of approach different when you use the same hand, but the length of the stroke AND the acceleration is different, all of which would lead to changes in pressure, angle, and vector in terms of scratches and degree of polish/abrasion. To be clear: I consider these variations natural and "traditional"—they are not "flaws."
2) While it matters less than above, you also adjust your angles differently when you start at the tip versus the heel. When you start at the tip, you tend to adjust the spine more to achieve tip contact with the stone, but when you flip and start at the heel, you tend to use more "pressure" to maintain contact when you get to the tip and less twisting and lifting the spine (as is common). While this doesn't immediately apply to wide bevels, it DOES reflect that you are probably using a different type of pressure combined (again) with a different type of stroke/acceleration, both of which could lead to a change in scratch patterns.
I like your approach to sharpening, and I think the strength of your videos and explanations is that they demonstrate your focus on the points of contact with the stone over and above these other variables. At the same time, these observations reveal to me how changing hands might not only benefit your scratch patterns at mid- and lower grits, but how they might also affect your bevels on narrow-bevel knives over time, at least cosmetically. (As Kit makes clear, you'll notice any such scratch patterns more on lower grits than on higher ones.) You clearly have excellent control over the edge contact with the stone, but it has always seemed pretty obvious to me that MOST people who use one hand to sharpen (well, one "primary" hand) tend to have considerably different stroke patterns (and angles of approach) when sharpening. I can imagine that switching hands would only increase the potential options to achieve cosmetic equivalence on each side of the knife while also still maintaining a consistent edge profile and apex with some practice.
I realize this sounds like I'm advocating for switching hands, but I don't mean to. To be frank, I think a lot of Japanese sharpeners that I've watched videos of (admittedly very few) have single-hand techniques that are excellent for edge consistency on asymmetrical knives in particular. But in those cases, it is also often a benefit to have a different angle of approach on each side of the knife and to have a long, consistent stroke across the entire edge with each stroke. With typical gyutos, the goals are sometimes different. Depending on the sharpener and the knife, I can see single-handed or switching hands as beneficial for certain results. In this particular case, I'm just looking for the aspects of your usual technique that I think might be fundamentally different when you switch hands as a starting point for self-reflection. Since I started by switching hands, I find myself constantly trying (and fumbling) to use more single-hand sharpening strokes to try to achieve longer strokes along a greater portion of the edge. It isn't my strength, though, so usually I just try to make the most of the advantages to switching hands as a I can! Haha.
~Joe
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Joe, interesting observations as always! Me, I tend to mirror my strokes starting with the tip regardless of edge direction and with single strokes this means a reverse J-stroke, cumbersome but it works well for me. But when I get to the heel, the angle is different edge facing vs away regardless. I assume this leads to the same variations, in general. In fact, Jon B. Talks about this in his wide bevel video, I think it is that video anyway.
Sorry, I think I have ADD...lol. I tend to focus on the first thing that jumps out at me and that resonated with how I sharpen.
Another issue with single hand sharpening, for me, is my darn thumb and downward pressure on the spine, which could flex the edge into the stone. Struggled with that for a long time.
As always, I am rambling.
Sorry, I think I have ADD...lol. I tend to focus on the first thing that jumps out at me and that resonated with how I sharpen.
Another issue with single hand sharpening, for me, is my darn thumb and downward pressure on the spine, which could flex the edge into the stone. Struggled with that for a long time.
As always, I am rambling.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Joe,
I’ve read your reply 3 times. I feel like a patient lying on a couch and you’re my psychiatrist. In the last 7/ years I’ve never had such a profound response. I truly appreciate your brilliant reply. I’m blown away by the detail you described in my video and your interpretation of it.
For several years I’ve been perplexed by my inability to achieve mirror finishes on both sides of the knife, the left side was always nice and polished but definitely not the same as my right side. My inability to figure that out until a few days ago just led me to take the easy way out and use the Edge Pro. Someone said switch hands and even after I did and after 3 months of practice and seeing the results the whole scratch pattern thing just didn’t come to me. I think I figured it out at 3am recently and I laughed at myself.
I’ve done a few Zero Tolerance folders now using both hands and the difference is quite something in terms of aesthetics on both sides. It just goes to show that even after all these years I can still learn new things about knife sharpening. I probably have 20 years left of sharpening if I’m lucky. My glass will hopefully be at least half full by then.
I also realize that the wording of my Topic is bad. I was never suggesting to switch hands, to advise people. The reason I posted the question was simply to ask if I was correct about scratch patterns being the root of the aesthetics thing.
I’ve read your reply 3 times. I feel like a patient lying on a couch and you’re my psychiatrist. In the last 7/ years I’ve never had such a profound response. I truly appreciate your brilliant reply. I’m blown away by the detail you described in my video and your interpretation of it.
For several years I’ve been perplexed by my inability to achieve mirror finishes on both sides of the knife, the left side was always nice and polished but definitely not the same as my right side. My inability to figure that out until a few days ago just led me to take the easy way out and use the Edge Pro. Someone said switch hands and even after I did and after 3 months of practice and seeing the results the whole scratch pattern thing just didn’t come to me. I think I figured it out at 3am recently and I laughed at myself.
I’ve done a few Zero Tolerance folders now using both hands and the difference is quite something in terms of aesthetics on both sides. It just goes to show that even after all these years I can still learn new things about knife sharpening. I probably have 20 years left of sharpening if I’m lucky. My glass will hopefully be at least half full by then.
I also realize that the wording of my Topic is bad. I was never suggesting to switch hands, to advise people. The reason I posted the question was simply to ask if I was correct about scratch patterns being the root of the aesthetics thing.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Wabi Sabi - Celebrating the imperfect
Cheers Grant
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
What a wealth of information here. I have also wondered if my left side does not look as good as the right because I am less comfortable, I spend less time on it.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Peter, your best attribute in my lonely opinion is the fact that you remain a constant student and are always in motion trying to improve. No ego, just simply helping others and continue to look for personal improvement yourself, very respectable.Peter Nowlan wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:21 pm Joe,
I’ve read your reply 3 times. I feel like a patient lying on a couch and you’re my psychiatrist. In the last 7/ years I’ve never had such a profound response. I truly appreciate your brilliant reply. I’m blown away by the detail you described in my video and your interpretation of it.
For several years I’ve been perplexed by my inability to achieve mirror finishes on both sides of the knife, the left side was always nice and polished but definitely not the same as my right side. My inability to figure that out until a few days ago just led me to take the easy way out and use the Edge Pro. Someone said switch hands and even after I did and after 3 months of practice and seeing the results the whole scratch pattern thing just didn’t come to me. I think I figured it out at 3am recently and I laughed at myself.
I’ve done a few Zero Tolerance folders now using both hands and the difference is quite something in terms of aesthetics on both sides. It just goes to show that even after all these years I can still learn new things about knife sharpening. I probably have 20 years left of sharpening if I’m lucky. My glass will hopefully be at least half full by then.
I also realize that the wording of my Topic is bad. I was never suggesting to switch hands, to advise people. The reason I posted the question was simply to ask if I was correct about scratch patterns being the root of the aesthetics thing.
Kudos!
“The goal is to die with memories, not dreams.”
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Thanks for your kind words, Peter. It is always a pleasure to read your posts and learn from you, so it is a bonus if I was able to write something that might return the favour!Peter Nowlan wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:21 pm Joe,
I’ve read your reply 3 times. I feel like a patient lying on a couch and you’re my psychiatrist. In the last 7/ years I’ve never had such a profound response. I truly appreciate your brilliant reply. I’m blown away by the detail you described in my video and your interpretation of it.
For several years I’ve been perplexed by my inability to achieve mirror finishes on both sides of the knife, the left side was always nice and polished but definitely not the same as my right side. My inability to figure that out until a few days ago just led me to take the easy way out and use the Edge Pro. Someone said switch hands and even after I did and after 3 months of practice and seeing the results the whole scratch pattern thing just didn’t come to me. I think I figured it out at 3am recently and I laughed at myself.
I’ve done a few Zero Tolerance folders now using both hands and the difference is quite something in terms of aesthetics on both sides. It just goes to show that even after all these years I can still learn new things about knife sharpening. I probably have 20 years left of sharpening if I’m lucky. My glass will hopefully be at least half full by then.
I also realize that the wording of my Topic is bad. I was never suggesting to switch hands, to advise people. The reason I posted the question was simply to ask if I was correct about scratch patterns being the root of the aesthetics thing.
~Joe
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
Well i don't know if my post will be helpful or not. I'm ambidextrous in a task specific way. I cut righty, eat lefty (eg chopsticks) , but sometimes I will slice righty and dice lefty Sports are mostly righty. For a handicap I'll play lefty for tennis or table tennis. Surgery is righty and microsurgery is ambidexterous. I blame all of this on my Mother lol.
Knife sharpening is ambidextrous for me. So I just switch hands as required and really don't notice a major difference either righty or lefty. It is just what I'm used to. You can see this in my Youtube videos (kenneths123) . I do have the edge of the blade facing away from me using either hand. Flipping it around for a single handed approach drives me nuts In any case I recommend that you pick a pattern good for you and PRACTICE.
Just as an aside, muscle memory - used in knife sharpening, cutting, driving, and many sports is developed by learning a sense of body position. This is often referred to as proprioception. It is a sense through a feedback loop involving small position sensing structures located in the joints of the body called Golgi apparatus. You see this in a tennis player 'knowing' where her racquet is located, a chef evenly slicing a veggies into uniform slices or a race car driver executing a tight pass maneuver knowing the exact location of his car. It is a skill highly developed in many chefs that we seldom think about. Also among knife sharpeners, especially as we 'feel' for a perfect edge angle almost unconsciously. Here stone feedback is quite useful. Watching a Kaiseki chef cut perfect slices through a hamo (eel) lets me know I have a long way to go on my proprioceptive abilities.
---
Ken
Knife sharpening is ambidextrous for me. So I just switch hands as required and really don't notice a major difference either righty or lefty. It is just what I'm used to. You can see this in my Youtube videos (kenneths123) . I do have the edge of the blade facing away from me using either hand. Flipping it around for a single handed approach drives me nuts In any case I recommend that you pick a pattern good for you and PRACTICE.
Just as an aside, muscle memory - used in knife sharpening, cutting, driving, and many sports is developed by learning a sense of body position. This is often referred to as proprioception. It is a sense through a feedback loop involving small position sensing structures located in the joints of the body called Golgi apparatus. You see this in a tennis player 'knowing' where her racquet is located, a chef evenly slicing a veggies into uniform slices or a race car driver executing a tight pass maneuver knowing the exact location of his car. It is a skill highly developed in many chefs that we seldom think about. Also among knife sharpeners, especially as we 'feel' for a perfect edge angle almost unconsciously. Here stone feedback is quite useful. Watching a Kaiseki chef cut perfect slices through a hamo (eel) lets me know I have a long way to go on my proprioceptive abilities.
---
Ken
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands
I have always felt more comfortable using both hands. It's helpful for me to see the height of the spine in addition to the sound and feel on the stone when sharpening. For polishing I like the edge facing towards me and have better control and a more even scratch pattern on both sides that way. I can take the same angle of approach without the handle getting in the way. It also gives me a better view of where my finger placement is on the bevel and allows me to lay the thumb of my handle hand sideways on the bevel to provide more even counter pressure to what is being done with my guiding hand. With the edge facing away I would be using the tip of my index finger and the bevel wouldn't be pressed as evenly against the stone.