Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

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Peter Nowlan
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Peter Nowlan »

I knew you could easily switch hands Ken but I just didn’t feel the need for it until recently. I should say that I didn’t know that it would make a difference but it sure does. It’s getting much easier now, I practice every day.
Thanks to all who replied and shared information.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by orezeno »

I believe that having the scratch pattern the same on both sides of the knife does visually improve the product because, for a given lighting angle, light is reflecting off of a similar surface texture (i.e. scratch pattern).

I agree that it has little to do with final sharpness. I sharpened with my dominant hand for many years until I finally got serious about waterstone sharpening. Then I worked hard to develop control with both hands so that I could get the scratch pattern to be as symmetrical as possible. For me, this was a natural outgrowth of how I sharpen; which is to pay close attention to the geometry, bevels, and edge as the sharpening process progresses. I noticed, almost immediately, that one side of the knife always looked better to me than the other, and it made me doubt whether I was really abrading both bevel surfaces to the same shape. Developing a consistent motion using either hand solved this problem.

Finally, you'll really notice the improvement of a symmetrical scratch pattern if you take a steel with high chromium content like ZDP-189 and fully mirror polish the edge. (Mostly a folder thing, not a chef knife thing, I know.)
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by old onion »

I'm trying.Each time I sharpen I switch hands now and gradually,I am seeing some improvement over control.Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks after all,we'll see.I have to go slow though as I just know I will be a few digits less if I try to hurry like I do with using my dominant hand. I hope I have better luck then trying to learn the stupid smartphone that I returned for a refund this morning.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Peter Nowlan »

Greg I noticed differences in wide bevels as well which as I said earlier is why I relied on the EP for mirror finishes on folders. Unlike you, I just didn’t figure out the reason why it was happening until recently. I never even thought to ask anyone about it either, I think I assumed it was an issue I was having due to pressure or angle control on the left side. The whole scratch pattern thing, something so simple just didn’t appear on my sharpening radar. If it had, I would have started the switch of hands thing years ago.

I’ve done some folders since and the difference is quite apparent.

All the best
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by old onion »

Do you think ,by switching hands,push cuts are improved or doesn't that apply ?
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Peter Nowlan »

I can’t see it making a difference but who knows, I’ll let you know in 10 years, that’s how long it took me to become efficient with my right hand so we’re looking at a decade at least here. 👍
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Jeff B »

Peter Nowlan wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:24 pm I can’t see it making a difference but who knows, I’ll let you know in 10 years, that’s how long it took me to become efficient with my right hand so we’re looking at a decade at least here. 👍
I'm in hopes it only takes me 10 years to become efficient....
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by old onion »

Peter Nowlan wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:24 pm I can’t see it making a difference but who knows, I’ll let you know in 10 years, that’s how long it took me to become efficient with my right hand so we’re looking at a decade at least here. 👍
I'm in deep doo doo then. I am already 71 with arthritis in both hands.I don't have gout or arthritis in my toes yet so maybe I can learn to switch feet while sharpening.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by ken123 »

A bit off topic but foot position also affects your results.

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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by old onion »

ken123 wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:19 pm A bit off topic but foot position also affects your results.

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And you would be the one to know too,Ken. :lol:
Ooops! I sure couldn't resist that one.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by old onion »

ken123 wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:19 pm A bit off topic but foot position also affects your results.

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Ken
This time without making a funny comment,I worked with the placing of my feet while sharpening and switching hands. It had a good impact on how I sharpened.I also tried placing my stone at various heights and found that if I placed the stone so that it was just belly button high,this also added to the importance of position for my method of sharpening.Movements started to become more natural.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Wjhunt »

Old onion makes a great point about the height of the stone. At 6’4”, I find a sink bridge is too low. Most videos show the stone perpendicular to the sharpeners waistline. I am curious to know if anyone sharpens with the stone parallel to their waist (like myself), and switches hands while sharpening.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by orezeno »

old onion wrote:Do you think ,by switching hands,push cuts are improved or doesn't that apply ?
My inclination is to say that it has no effect on any cutting technique. I have read that aligning the scratch pattern (on both sides of the knife) with a slight slant towards the heel improves slice cuts. Not sure if I believe this, but I have not investigated it at all.
Peter wrote: I’ll let you know in 10 years, that’s how long it took me to become efficient with my right hand
I suspect you're being facetious, but if Malcom Gladwell is correct and it takes 10,000 hours (~5 years full-time) to achieve mastery, you're already a master. Really, you're just applying all the knowledge you've gained to a new technique. Once the technique becomes comfortable, you'll know, based on your past experience, whether you're getting the right results. I bet this is a matter of a couple of months.
Ken wrote:A bit off topic but foot position also affects your results.
I'd broaden that to suggest that consistency of sharpening mechanics affects your results. For freehand sharpening, this would include body position (achieved via positioning your feet, but also your posture), stone height, stone orientation, distance of the stone from the body, lighting, and so on.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by ken123 »

Regarding gait position, I prefer a staggered stance, much like a fighter, as oppossed to both feet equidistant from the sharpening area.

It comes down to applied kinematics or kinesiology. You strive to minimize extraneous joint movement.

So if you are tall, you might add a 4x6" board under your stoneholder to optimize your angles, Also pivot from your ankles to have less random joint movements, etc.

Ultimately use these principles to work out and master your own technique.

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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by jbart65 »

When I first started sharpening almost four years ago, I tried and struggled with a variety of techniques. Most of the initial video tutorials I saw showed sharpeners only using their strong hand, so that’s what I did.

Everything was fine using my strong left hand to sharpen with trailing strokes (edge facing me).

But I just couldn’t get comfortable with using edge-leading strokes with my weak right hand. I sensed much of what Joe explained in his keenly insightful post but that was inchoate in my mind (great post, Joe).

Something was amiss.

I watched more videos and saw some sharpeners switching hands. It felt odd when I first tried it, but only because a weak hand naturally feels, well, weak! Yet something about it seemed right.

As a teen, I practiced hard to learn how to dribble, shoot layups and take hook shots using my right hand in order to become a better basketball player. I spent a whole summer practicing.

I actually found that learning to shoot with my right helped me to shoot with my left. I’d position my body differently when taking righty layups to ward off defenders and avoid having my shot blocked. I then did the same with my left.

About three months after I started sharpening, I decided to adopt the method using both hands.

Given my experience with basketball, I knew I needed to practice intensively for two or three months and then the feeling would start to become natural. I bought a Tojiro ITK 240 solely to practice sharpening and sharpened and thinned several times a week or more.

Sure enough, I become comfortable with both hands after a full summer of practice. And now it feels quite natural.

I still keep improving, though. I didn’t do both sides at the same angle early on. I’ve gotten a lot better at it, but still have to concentrate at the start of each session to make sure my angles are close.

The hardest part is using one of my fingers on my weak hand to keep the heel at the proper height. I bought some of CKTG’s little blue angle guides to help me.

Like Ken, I use a moderated fighter’s stance. I can’t position my leading foot as forward as I would like because I sharpen at a sink. The cabinet limits how far I can put my lead (left) foot forward.

I did find I needed more height on my homemade sink bridge to sharpen. I just added another piece of wood on top to increase the height.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by ken123 »

Jeff it sounds like you are taking a perfect approach. Task specific learning is what I've done over the years. Both our minds and hands take time to acquire knowledge.

Great post!

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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by Peter Nowlan »

Cool post Jeffry thanks. In all honesty it was easier than I anticipated using my left hand. Holding the angle was easy, it was the motion of pushing the knife back and forth from end to end of the stone that felt unnatural. It took me about 20-30 knives to get comfortable. Also the tip and heel area took a lot of time to get it to feel less awkward. I’m very glad I tried it though. Feels like another goal reached.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by jbart65 »

Peter, since I have seen all your previous videos many times (and those of Ken), I'd like to see how your new approach compares to the old one.

Thus I look forward to a new video of you using both hands! (-:

When I first started sharpening, I did think using the same hand was odd. I know you and others make it look so smooth and fine. I just couldn't get the same feeling.

Seemed to me I would be sharpening an edge in different directions. I wouldn't necessarily be going with or against the grain consistently as I would with wood or cutting steak.

I was too uniformed and inexperienced to think about polish and such at the time, but it was another thing that bugged me.

Another problem was a lack of reference point. When I was doing my strong left hand in an edge trailing motion, I couldn't compare it exactly to using my right hand doing it in an edge-leading manner. And vice versa.

It also seemed to me as if I was sharpening different parts of the edge in a nonuniform manner. I couldn't always tell or remember how much I sharpened on the right side and how much on the left. Or which part of the blade got more or less attention.

Using both hands, I can more easily tell. I tend to sharp each side of the tip separately, then do sections of the whole blade, then finish with full front to back sweeps. Perhaps a little excesive but it works best for me.
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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by ken123 »

Now I'm curious how many people are also ambidexterous cutters as well?

Im thinking that this retraining is related to neural plasticity. I see this in hand injuries and it is an age dependent phenomena (topic for another post if anyone is interested)

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Re: Correct me if I’m wrong. Switch Hands

Post by OgerBash »

I'm ambidextrous cutter, but it was out of necessity being left handed. I don't know if I would have bothered practicing with my off hand if it wasn't necessary. Even after all these years of using both hands, the more precise I need to be the slower I am with my right hand compared to my left hand.
ken123 wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:02 pm Now I'm curious how many people are also ambidexterous cutters as well?

Im thinking that this retraining is related to neural plasticity. I see this in hand injuries and it is an age dependent phenomena (topic for another post if anyone is interested)

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Ken
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