Stone and sharpening advice

[Idaho RC]

I am a new owner of an Edge Pro Apex. I have read a lot about sharpening but I still have many questions. I was hoping someone could help me out. The main question is regarding stone selection. I have read the grit chart but still could use some "hands on" advice. I want to get a mirror finish I have been able to get a polished surface but I still have scratches remaining on the surface. Here are the stones I have been using:

CTKG 140 grit diamond
Edge Pro 220
Edge Pro 400
CTKG 400 grit diamond
China 600
China 1,500
Shapton Glass 4,000
Shapton Glass 8,000
Shapton Glass 16,000

I usually don't use the CTKG 400 grit diamond because I don't know where it actually falls in the grit sequence. I will purchase the needed Shapton Glass stones to get my mirror polish but I am not sure which ones I need. I currently have 220, 320, 500 and 1,000 in my shopping cart. But I don't know if I actually need all of them. The China stones are horrible so I will not use them as soon as I have good replacements. Can I continue to use the Edge Pro 220 and 400 grit or should I just replace those as well?

I have hand strops using the green, white and I have the black coming. Is hand stropping after the finest stone OK? Or should I get strop blanks for the Edge Pro and strop that way? Is using the compound sticks black, white and green sufficient or do I need to use some of the diamond pastes or sprays?

Edge Pro sells a leveling kit using 60 grit aluminum oxide and a glass plate. I have some 36 grit aluminum oxide and a glass plate. I think the 36 grit will work just somewhat slower on the course stones. Can I use the 36 grit on my fine 4K, 8K and 16K Shapton stones? They look glazed over. Or is the 36 grit too course? Or do I just need to save up and buy one of the diamond leveling blocks?

I hope some of the pros can help get me pointed in the right direction.

[lfholland]

Let me start by saying I am far from a pro. If you still have scratches, you need to tighten the gap between the various grits, which it sounds like you are trying to do. Also, I don't think you need to start with the diamond plate unless the blade is in bad shape. I think the biggest problem you have right now is the china stones aren't doing much for you, and they are creating a pretty large gap in between your descent edge pro stock stone and the shapton glass stones.The shapton glass stones are great for polishing to that bright reflective mirror shine. I would get the Shapton glass 320, 500, 1000, and 2000, then see if you need a 220. A good rule of thumb is double the grit in between one stone and the next.

I am a novice at stropping, so I will let someone else comment on that, but I think replacing the stones in the middle of your line up should allow you to get very good results.

Diamond flattening plates are said to be much easier and more efficient than the aluminum oxide, which will work. I have no experience using it, but have read enough from people to know that it will work. Does the 36 grit leave deep scratches are just change the look of the finish on the stone?

[Idaho RC]

Thanks for the advice.

The Shapton glass 320, 500, 1000, and 2000 with the addition of the 2,000 are a little different from what I thought I might need. What I was hoping is that I could keep using the Edge Pro 220 on for the course stone and the Edge pro 400 and then fill in the gaps above that. Can I get the mirror finish I am after if I skip the 320 for now?

How would this work out:

CTKG 140 grit diamond - I only use this if I am changing profile significantly. I think it works well.
Edge Pro 220
Edge Pro 400
Shapton Glass 500
Shapton Glass 1,000
Shapton Glass 2,000
Shapton Glass 4,000
Shapton Glass 8,000
Shapton Glass 16,000

Would this work OK for my grit progression? The stones in bold the Shapton 500, 1,000 and 2,000 I would need to purchase.

Anyone know how the CTKG 400 grit diamond falls into this line up?

I have not used the 36 grit aluminum oxide yet. I have it I have not tried it. I guess I could try it out on my Edge Pro 220 stone and see how it works. The Shapton Glass I have from 4,000 to 16,000 look really glazed over. I am not sure if that matters, or if it does what to do about it. Any input?


Any input on what to use after the 16,000 stone would be helpful. I have been hand stropping with white and green compounds. I will have the more aggressive black and red compunds in a couple of weeks. Is hand stropping the way to go? Or can I do a better job with a strop set up on the Edge Pro.

I really want to be able to do the beautiful mirror finishes. I am not quite there now, but I know I am on my way to getting there.

[Radar53]

Hi there IRC and welcome to the forum. Its easy to get overwhelmed by all the different stones and different grits. Looking at what you've got and what you are trying to achieve there are some steps that will simplify things quite a lot.

1) ditch the EP & China stones - keep them for later when you get this more nailed & use them on beater knives or relatives knives but don't use them for your good stuff.
2) Use your CKTG 140 grit diamond stone for flattening your coarser stones - say up to 500 grit & use the CKTG 400 for 1k onwards.
3) To get mirror edges this could be a good place to start - try & get roughly a 2X progression so I would suggest the following;
GKTG diamond 140 for new bevels
SG220 to effectively remove the scratches from the 140 and as a starting coarse stone
SG500, SG1k, SG2k, SG4k, SG8k, SG16k
Then straight bare leather strops, bovine or horse, followed by kangaroo if you wanted (go to loaded strops down the track if needed)

Technique & care are really important. Flatten ALL your stones before starting. You have to avoid cross contamination of the grits at all costs - its heartbreaking to get to 16k and find that somewhere a couple of worn bits of 220 grit have somehow got back in the mix and left awful scratches on your now nicely polished surfaces - read start again. Keep stones, wiping cloths etc separate for each grit. Wash hands etc & wipe down ALL your equipment between different grits. Change the "painters tape" for every new stone.

Grind in alternating directions so that you can make sure that you remove ALL the scratches from the previous stone. That is, start say with the 220, grind from heel to tip on each side until you have formed a burr on both sides then remove the burr. Next with the 500, use the Sharpie technique to absolutely ensure that you have matched the angle perfectly. Grind in the opposite direction ie from tip to heel on each side. After a few sequences on each side inspect with a Loupe to see if you can detect ANY scratches from the former stone. If you can see any earlier scratches then step & repeat with the 500 stone until there are none of the previous scratches visible under the Loupe. Move onto the 1k stone, reverting to the heel to tip direction, use the Sharpie & repeat as for the 500, until ALL the 500 grit scratches are removed. Onto the 2k stone, step & repeat etc etc until the 16k is done & dusted.

At 4k you should be starting to see the beginnings of your mirror edge.

Then use the bare strops either with EP or bench strops. Try to back the stropping angle off to be 1 or 2 degrees greater than your grinding angles ie if you are grinding at 15 degrees then strop at say 17 degrees.

HTH

[Idaho RC]

Grant WOW! Talk about helpful! You post was really clear.

Many of points you made I haven't considered. I hadn't considered grit contamination from a more aggressive stone. That makes lots of sense. Changing the tape also. I better pay attention and keep my rags clean as well.

Do you mind elaborating a little more about the strops. I will have 4 of the different compounds green, white, black and red. Why do you recommend using bare leather rather than compounds. Or if you know of some good reading about stropping could you point me to an article?

Thanks a bunch for the information.

Randy

[Radar53]

Sorry IRC - I just realised that I got my last sentence back to front. It should read "Try to back the stropping angle off to be 1 or 2 degrees more acute than your grinding angle ie if you are grinding at 15 degrees then strop at say 13 degrees."

My apologies

[Idaho RC]

Thanks so much for the recommendations. I ordered the Shapton Glass, 220, 500, 1,000 and 2,000 to go with my 4,000, 8,000 and 16,000 stones. I also ordered a 20x Loupe. I thought I ordered the 30x but apparently I ended up ordering the 20x instead. I am not sure if that is god or bad.

I tried using the CKTG 140 grit diamond stone to lap my Edge Pro 220 and 400 stones and I used the CKTG 400 grit diamond stone on the finer stones. Other than the diamond stones being a little to small to do the job properly it worked out pretty well. I didn't' realize that the stones should be lapped often. I am sure it will make a huge difference in how they work. My new stones will be here by the weekend and I am anxious to see if I can get a nicely polished edge on a knife or two.

I am still not clear on what to so with the stops. So for now, I will just use my hand strops. I have the white and green compound loaded on a strop and have a new two sided strop coming in a couple of weeks that will also include the red and black compound. I don't have a bare leather strop. Should I?

If anyone would like to add any other pointers on getting a mirror finish on the Edge Pro or can point to some good reading on it feel free to "jump in".

Randy

[Radar53]

Hi Randy. It might be worth trying bare strops before going to loaded strops just so that you can see what they do. My concerns with loaded strops (which might be totally unfounded) are these;

Your Shapton stones are very precise regarding grit eg a 5k stone is 3𝛍 ± 0.05𝛍 if memory serves. That is, they have a very tight variance around the nominal grit size. On posts that I have read for the compounds that you are talking about, (a) the nominal grit size can vary depending on supplier, and (b) on top of this there also seems to be a wide variance, around the stated nominal size, within any single given compound.

Thus on a hard earned Shapton 16k (ie 1𝛍) finish, you could be stropping with a compound that is for example a nominal 4𝛍 ± 2𝛍. So there could be grit particles that would be 6𝛍, the equivalent of a 2500 grit finish. (Please don't quote me on the exact numbers I've used for the compounds, as I can't remember the variety of figures I've read over the years. I've just used random numbers to try & demonstrate my point here.)

If you decide that you do want to use loaded strops from the get go, that's perfectly fine of course, as variety is the spice of life and we each choose to do things in a way that works for us. Could I just suggest that if you do head that way then you do the research on the products you intend to use so that you don't end up frustrated or alternatively that you use a very defined stropping compound that is a known animal eg diamond pastes, CBN and others from the likes of Ken123 on this site <http://www.chefknivestogo.com/strops.html> or Hand America etc.

Hopefully someone who knows a LOT more about stropping compounds can contribute to this to help you out with actual hard data.

[Idaho RC]

I understand now what you are saying about stopping and the compounds. Don't mess up all of my hard work by grinding on it with a stopping compound that is too course! Makes perfect sense. You do a nice job explaining this stuff. I know that I don't need them polished but I would like if I can get them there. The look just fascinates me. I have struggled through sharpening knives all of my life and to get to a point where i am somewhat proficient at it is something that will give me a lot of satisfaction.

I will work on a few this weekend and report my on my progress.

Randy

[jprezfe]

Stropping by hand is ok as long as you keep same angle. I made my own E.P. strops with those paint mixing sticks. Just cut to desired length and apply whatever compound. It has worked for me. You can get the at home depot for "free" with any purchase but I'll let you decide if that is ok for you. Ken has high quality compounds.

As for flattening CKTG flattening plate, inexpensive and works great.