Best toothy edge on high grit stones

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Drafter
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Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Drafter » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:31 am

If a person had polish tape a Shapton glass and a chosera of equal grit what stone would produce a toothy edge in the high grit range. And what grit would that need to be.

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Kit Craft
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Kit Craft » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:45 am

That really depends on a number of things. Are you using each stone to the fullest through a very tight progression? Are you making big to huge jumps such as 1-5k, 1-6k or 1-8k? Are you using your mid to high grit stones like a coarse stone as in, sharpening/polishing, are you just deburing or stropping?

The generic answer is that between the two lines, the chosera 3k will leave a refined but "toothy" edge. Gererally speaking, I find the Shapton Glass stones to leave a smoother edge than a lot of stones in general. More polish than you might expect at a given grit. That does not mean the edge is a sharp as I like it. Example: The SG2k seems to leave a sharp but smooth edge but is still clearly mid grit. The shapton pro 2k leaves a more aggressive edge with more bite yet somehow feels to have more refinement. The Chosera 2k clearly leaves a more refined edge than either but the differences are still small.

If I had chosera I would likely go 800/3k or 1k/5k if I wanted to retaina lot of tooth or bite. Shapton Pro I might even stop at 2k. Shapton glass I like the 500-2000-6000 but if you want t retain more bite you might prefer the 1k/4k or 1k/6k.

Now, if you want subtle bite and not something that is highly aggressive that can be manipulated with most stones.

Overall, for the EP I like the glass stones for practical reasons. They are hard, and precise. While not an EP guy, I find that to be an important trait for an EP stone. I would not want something that goes out of flat in mid session or even across a handful of knives. You won't have a problem with the other stones either but in this particular case I simply like the SG stones.

There are a few guys who are real big into the ep on this forum and I bet they will give you some good advice. :)

Drafter
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Drafter » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:45 am

My current set up is cktg diamond 140 and 400 then I do 400 ep then the 1000 ep then the 2000 polish tape I have a plain leather strop to finish it off.

Jason H
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Jason H » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:16 pm

When you all say "toothy edge", does this refer to scratches on the bevel or the small ridges on the apex that look like a wood saw if looked at under magnification?

I sure do have a lot to learn...

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Kit Craft
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Kit Craft » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:46 pm

Jason H wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:16 pm
When you all say "toothy edge", does this refer to scratches on the bevel or the small ridges on the apex that look like a wood saw if looked at under magnification?

I sure do have a lot to learn...
In context, around here anyway, toothy is an edge with some bite left in it. So the micro serrations on the apex that are not 100% polished out. I think most people call scratches unsightly. :mrgreen:

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Jason H » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:06 pm

Thanks for feedback, I think this is starting to make sense. So if I understand this correctly- there are good reasons to not take every knife to the highest grit/polish possible? I am trying to get over my ingrained assumption that "sharper" is always better. What I am going to do is sharpen a knife and stop at 1000 grit and use it to compare how it may differ by not using a 6000 grit stone. I am just starting to learn freehand and it's a change from using an EP where I finished every knife with polishing tape; it's strange how I feel so compelled to create a mirror finish. LOL.

Radar53
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Radar53 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:03 pm

Hi Jason and welcome to the forum. Probably the biggest thing that I have learnt from this forum is that for most things there is no one correct answer and different people settle on different things. My preference was for refined and polished edges, & because I'm a home based cook and I like sharpening knives it didn't matter if I had to sharpen more often. If you're in a pro setting that's a totally different scenario & requirement.

The other things to remember are that two stones, of supposedly the same grit size eg 5k, can leave quite different finishes. Even a single stone of a given grit size can leave different finishes depending on final pressures & / or technique.

I now mix & match more these days. We have a very soft & old euro set (maybe HRC 53 or 54) & I probably finish those at 2 or 3k. Also have another set of euros that are 57 or 58 HRC, so I'll run those to 4 or 5k & my JK's (HRC 60 to 66) I'll run those somewhere between 5 & 10k. That's just me and that's just for now.

I reckon the key thing is to find a starting point and then to experiment and play around with the options from there.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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Kit Craft
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Kit Craft » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:04 pm

Jason H wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:06 pm
Thanks for feedback, I think this is starting to make sense. So if I understand this correctly- there are good reasons to not take every knife to the highest grit/polish possible? I am trying to get over my ingrained assumption that "sharper" is always better. What I am going to do is sharpen a knife and stop at 1000 grit and use it to compare how it may differ by not using a 6000 grit stone. I am just starting to learn freehand and it's a change from using an EP where I finished every knife with polishing tape; it's strange how I feel so compelled to create a mirror finish. LOL.
I wouldn't say that going higher in grit makes something sharper anyway, more keen is more like it. Me, I don't like a high grit finish at all. You can mirror polish the bevel itself without ever touching the edge if you so wish. Or go back and put a more coarse micro bevel. I don't much care for going beyond 4-6k and much of the time I finish at the 2-3k level. I like to feel my edge bite into things as I cut rather than glide through them. I guess everyone is different.

You say stop at 1k, that particular edge is one that I like for a paring knife on the rare occasion that I use one and for cutting raw fat. For veggies I like a 3-5k edge, normally closer to 3k. And for raw protein I normally use a 4-8k edge. However, you can make an 8k edge have more bite by making the jump from a 1k stone and not using the 8k stone to its fullest.

Honestly, this is all preference. I can get by with the edge off of a Norton IB8...

sindyciaray
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by sindyciaray » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:50 am

The toothy is an edge with some bite left in it

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Jason H » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:44 pm

I find this entire topic of "toothy" so very interesting so I appreciate all of you taking the time to explain. I got here to CKTG by starting on a EP and getting quite good at it; but oddly enough I came to realize that as I got more efficient I liked it less because I spent more time measuring, flattening, and cleaning than I actually did sharpening. I am just started to learning to freehand and it has captured me quickly, I like the movement, feel of it all, but most importantly it was just me and a stone. Although my results are poor, I feel better when I can say " I did this". I can create a beautiful bevel and edge on a EP but it was the machine that did it, not me.

Sorry...back to "toothy". I am coming from a place where I love a blade that just glides through everything, I realize that there is a different school of thought and I am trying to understand. Is this toothy edge preferred others who are not chefs/pros in the industry?

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Kit Craft
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Kit Craft » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:13 pm

Jason H wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:44 pm
I find this entire topic of "toothy" so very interesting so I appreciate all of you taking the time to explain. I got here to CKTG by starting on a EP and getting quite good at it; but oddly enough I came to realize that as I got more efficient I liked it less because I spent more time measuring, flattening, and cleaning than I actually did sharpening. I am just started to learning to freehand and it has captured me quickly, I like the movement, feel of it all, but most importantly it was just me and a stone. Although my results are poor, I feel better when I can say " I did this". I can create a beautiful bevel and edge on a EP but it was the machine that did it, not me.

Sorry...back to "toothy". I am coming from a place where I love a blade that just glides through everything, I realize that there is a different school of thought and I am trying to understand. Is this toothy edge preferred others who are not chefs/pros in the industry?
I like a ton of subtle bite or tooth in an edge. That is not to say I like an edge with a lot of tooth. What I mean to say is that an edge refined to about 4-6k, on the right stone, will leave enough bite that it almost sticks to the skin of a pepper or a tomato. This same edge will slice right into your finger nail if you slice/draw but if you push and then do a lateral movement the edge will not budge.

Now, a polished edge with zero pressure will feel almost as if it is gliding over the nail but if you move left or right it is actually in the nail. The same results but it feels different in action. This sort of edge does not "stick" to the skin of fruit/veg but it should still fall through it without an issue. However, to me this leaves no room for feedback within the cut. I'd prefer shave my face with this kind of edge than cut up my food. Not that it won't work well for either but it is not my preference.

Both of these edges are still different from an edge with loads and loads of tooth. Something like an 800-2000 grit edge or lower even. I use these for paring knives. Good to know you have hit your thumb before it explodes with blood. :lol: Also for knives that can not take a polished edge well.

Now, a toothy edge can still glide through onions, potatoes etc but it does have a different feel to it. I also feel that a more coarse edge will retain bite longer than a refined edge. Not that one goes dull faster than the other, per se, but that it dulls differently. That could be pure perception on my part but that is how it seems to me.

Anyway, that is how I feel about my edges. I am not a pro and have no desire to be one. :lol:

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Radar53 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:14 pm

Interesting Kit. As earlier, for my sins, I really like refined edges on most of my knives somewhere between say 5 - 10k. I like your phrase "I like a ton of subtle bite or tooth in an edge ". For me its been more about the bite than necessarily the tooth & sometimes I have to look over the bench to check that none of my fingertips have been left lying around!!!

Maybe its because I just cook at home, but I hadn't really concentrated that much on the feedback issue you raise. This might just become another rabbit hole that I have crawl around in. Bugger :roll:
Last edited by Radar53 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers Grant

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Radar53 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:16 pm

Interesting Kit. As earlier, for my sins, I really like refined edges on most of my knives somewhere between say 5 - 10k. I like your phrase "I like a ton of subtle bite or tooth in an edge ". For me its been more about the bite than necessarily the tooth & sometimes I have to look over the bench to check that none of my fingertips have been left lying around!!!

Maybe its because I just cook at home, but I hadn't really concentrated that much on the feedback issue you raise. This might just become another rabbit hole that I have crawl around in. Bugger :roll:

Sorry - I don't quite know how this got here twice.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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Kit Craft
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Kit Craft » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:26 pm

Radar53 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:14 pm
Interesting Kit. As earlier, for my sins, I really like refined edges on most of my knives somewhere between say 5 - 10k. I like your phrase "I like a ton of subtle bite or tooth in an edge ". For me its been more about the bite than necessarily the tooth & sometimes I have to look over the bench to check that none of my fingertips have been left lying around!!!

Maybe its because I just cook at home, but I hadn't really concentrated that much on the feedback issue you raise. This might just become another rabbit hole that I have crawl around in. Bugger :roll:
The feedback of cutting, like sharpening, is one of the first things I noticed when I got my first few J-knives. All with factory edges at that point, I must add. I find this particularly noticeable when doing something like peeling a potato on the board with a gyuto. When I follow the curvature of the potato I find it easier to get into extra meat and make waste when I have a highly polished edge because I can not feel the difference between skin and meat so easily. However it seems that when I have a slightly less polished edge I can feel a very light amount of resistance with the rough skin of the potato whereas when it goes into meat it feels smooth with no resistance. I hope that makes sense.

I suppose I would not need such a crutch if my knife skills were better or I have some sort of innate ability to cut things up without using tactile sensation. I am slow, and I try to be methodical and that is putting it lightly. It drives my wife nuts. :lol:

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ken123
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by ken123 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:19 am

Ah, where to begin on this nebulous topic ...

Of course a welcome to the forum to so many new members all showing up on one thread!

Well 'toothy' is a confused term. It can refer to the coarseness of the scratches intersecting the edge of the edge - bigger scratches from coarser grits being more 'toothy'. It can also refer to an edge where the burr has been ripped off with a resultant fracture plane produced where a true edge should be. Or it can be both.

One test is referred to as a '3 finger test' in which both types of toothiness show up in a positive manner. Not surprisingly, exceeding 6k will tend to result in a lower score. You also see it in a more subtle test in which you roll up a paper towel (dry) to look like a joint/cigarette and see how easily it cuts - either clean in one short stroke (positive) or gliding over the 'roll' even with moderate pressure (negative).

This can get confusing in that you can even get edges past 100,000 grit to pass this test IF they are well formed edges, not sloppy edges that have been rounded off.

So in general for synthetic edges you can get a seriously toothy edge off a 24 grit stone if done well. For Japanese Natural stones, you can get a nice combination of toothiness AND edge refinement at the same time.

I know I'm being a bit vague here, but as you explore this you are going to find different KINDS of sharpness and both develop a sense of individual taste for the types of edges you like for various steels, knife shapes etc and also change your mind over time. I probably like a more refined edge on my better knives, maintaining many of my knives at 24k grit or higher, just to present an alternate viewpoint, where some days I consider a 30k edge a mid-grit level of finish :)

Have fun exploring this!

Remember that Edgepro grits and films don't match Japanese grits (there are reference tables here for conversion).

---
Ken

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by jasmyndube » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:08 am

realize that there is a different school of thought and I am trying to understand.

Raymond3
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Raymond3 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:56 am

I have found that for a working pocket knife, a good toothy edge can be had with 400 or 600 Congress or Edge Pro stones. But even better is 30 micron diamond (3m PSA) tape.

Radar53
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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by Radar53 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:22 pm

Hi Ray. I also use 3M PSA diamond films and find that they leave a very nice & consistent scratch pattern plus they have a very interesting "toothy" feel. At say 5k I have 2 stones and the film. The EP1200 (5k) stone leaves a very nice refined edge with a reasonable mirror finish. My Nubatama 5k leaves a subtly toothy edge, with the start of mirror finish. The 3M diamond film doesn't leave a much different finish, but leaves a toothier edge again. One that seems to have slightly more "bite".

Just what I find.

PS welcome to the forum.
Cheers Grant

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Re: Best toothy edge on high grit stones

Post by ChefKnivesToGo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:01 pm

A microscope would help you see the differences in the edge they produce. You can get them cheap that hook up to your computer.
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