I became more and more interested in kitchen knives at the beginning of this year. I already have two Victorinox Fibrox, but I was unable to make them sharp for more than 1 week. I tried pull through sharpener that was advised to me in a local knife shop and whetstones. Both of them gave mediocre results regarding both edge retentions and sharpness. Of course, my whetstone skills are horrible.
I thought that maybe the knives themselves were a problem and bought $250 SG2 Gyuto knife and $100 VG10 pairing knife. I didn't even try to sharpen them myself using whetstones, I got them professionally sharpened in the Japanese knife shop that I bought them in (stellar Google reviews). They're both beautiful, can get very sharp, and can stay sharp longer, but... they can do it for 2-3 weeks. In the meantime, I bought Worksharp Precision Adjust system but was a little hesitant to use them on my expensive Japanese Knives given the short clamp and not good stability. I sharpened some of my other knives, and the results were really good, but it takes a long time and they stayed sharp for only two weeks. I even bought after magnetic blade holder attachment, but I'm still waiting for it to be shipped to me.
In the end, I'm around 400$ poorer, and my initial issues were not resolved.
I can appreciate the craftsmanship of the knife, they look beautiful, but in the end, I need a tool. A cutting tool and a sharpening tool. I lost hope to get expensive knife that will just stay sharp and need sharpening only every 6 months-1 year. Worksharp PA is cool and all, but it takes ~15 min per knife, every 2-3 weeks, which quickly adds up with multiple knives. I know that there are other fixed-angle systems out there, but the time investment is still there.
Is there a fast and easy way I can sharpen these beautiful expensive knives without ruining them? Worksharp Ken Onion? Or should I rather sell my expensive knives and abuse Victorinoxes with an electric sharpener?
The Victorinox won't hold an edge very long since the steel is softer. A honing steel can be used to re align the edge to keep it cutting, but the softer steel will roll over at the apex of the edge, which is what you are seeing.
What is your useage like knife wise? What are you cutting, on what boards, how long a day, etc. SG2 should hold an edge for a while! HAP 40 may have some of the best retention out there and is better than SG2. VG-10 is so so edge retention wise. In a pro kitchen, 2-3 weeks is pretty good for edge retention! As a home cook, I can usually go a couple months before needing any touch ups with SG-2 or other steels.
One option is a strop. I am a home cook, but I used a Blue #2 gyuto for 3 months between stroppings on a 1 micron strop. Stropping is an excellent way to quickly touch up an edge. I use a strop with 14 micron and 3 micron diamond paste on the leather paddle and it will remove micro chips with the 14 micron side (around 1000 grit) and the 3 micron (around 5K) side will leave a nice, sticky feeling edge that cuts well. I have 1 micron and finer strops, but rarely use them. The 14 micron and 3 micron paddle strop (both diamond compounds) has become my go to, even for my carry/hunting/EDC blades. They work well on CPM CruWear, Magnacut, S90V and other very wear resistant steels and work within a couple minutes to refresh the edge. On other steels, it's even quicker!
To sharpen, I use a 320 Shapton Glass Stone if I need to do major sharpening, chip removal, thinning, doing a fresh bevel, etc. I then go to a Bester 1200 and Rika 5K stone and then the strops (14 micron and 3 micron) to clean up and refine the edge. Doing a full sharpening, I am usually at less than 10 minutes for a 240mm gyuto.
For touch ups, I can spend a couple minutes on the 1200 and then a minute or 2 on the Rika 5K stone, maybe 5 minutes total. Stropping on the 14/3 micron diamond strop, I spend about 1-2 minutes total and I am back to a hair shaving edge. Starting at a 1K edge, how well you refine the edge from that stone sets the tone for the rest of the sharpening. I can do a good edge off the 1200 stone, and touch up quickly on the 3 micron strop and be good to go fast. The leather strop will round out the edge if you use too much pressure, but is more forgiving angle wise. Stones, especially finer than 2K, you really need to be able to hold a consistent bevel.
Using a guided system takes a while since it needs to reset the bevel completely to that system and I am not sure how the stones will work with more wear resistant stones. The diamond stones should work quick, but they are narrow and the process is slower. Most water stones are 2-2.5" wide stones and have more surface area and the process is much faster. I do not know what "coarse, medium and fine" grits are used on the Worksharp, but they may not be really "fine" to our standards!
I would look for a 300-500 grit stone for heavy work (shapton Glass 320 would be my recommendation), then a good 1000-1200 grit stone and then something in the 3-6K range, like the Rika 5K, Arashimya 6K, etc for the final polishing. You can also strop your blade on the 3-6K stone for touch ups, too. These 3 stones should work much faster to touch up the knife.
You may be able to find someone local to you to show you how to use the waterstones and sharpen the knife, or look up youtube videos that show the process. Many guys here are self taught from YouTube University and can give good links/channels to watch! You can practice on your Vics as well!
Expectations for what an edge can do and for how long it will do that will evolve both with sharpening skills and cutting skills. A precise edge used with proper technique will last longer than a sloppy edge wielded by someone who may have unintentionally destructive habits.
Maximizing a knifes edge retention runs deeper than what knife is being used and how it’s being sharpened.
Forget arbitrary numbers like “6 months to a year” because not all months are equal, one bowl of slaw may require more cuts than one month of pasta. Don’t give up on whetstone sharpening, a few “a ha” moments and it won’t be as much of a burden as it may seem early on.
Last edited by jmcnelly85 on Mon Jul 24, 2023 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And one more point, NO edge can go six months to a year without a full progression sharpening without regular maintenance, especially knives with softer steel like Victorinox's. That means regular stropping and/or touch ups on a high grit stone or using a honing rod. If your edges are getting sharp then you are doing something right. You need to just keep using your stones to keep getting better and come up with regular edge maintenance that works for you to extend your sharpening intervals.
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.
I'm curious about how the knives are getting used, what kind of cutting board, and how you define sharp/needs to be sharpened. Have you tried a strop or ceramic rod in between sharpening?
Examples of premature dulling..
A glass cutting board or sliding ingredients around the board using the blade (rather than the spine),
Unsheathed/ loose knife in drawer, dropped into sink and possibly knocked around..
The other thing is to know what to expect in terms of edge retention.. When you have a fresh edge, maybe you test it on arm hair or paper towel or whatever, but it's normal to use it once or twice and lose a lot of what makes you say "wow" about how sharp it is. The bigger question being 'how well is it cutting food.'
Maybe you can give us a little more insight into what/how you use the knives.
STPepper9 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:20 pm
I'm curious about how the knives are getting used, what kind of cutting board, and how you define sharp/needs to be sharpened. Have you tried a strop or ceramic rod in between sharpening?
Examples of premature dulling..
A glass cutting board or sliding ingredients around the board using the blade (rather than the spine),
Unsheathed/ loose knife in drawer, dropped into sink and possibly knocked around..
The other thing is to know what to expect in terms of edge retention.. When you have a fresh edge, maybe you test it on arm hair or paper towel or whatever, but it's normal to use it once or twice and lose a lot of what makes you say "wow" about how sharp it is. The bigger question being 'how well is it cutting food.'
Maybe you can give us a little more insight into what/how you use the knives.
This. Definitely this.
You can extend your edge significantly by not breaking rules. The best way to sharpen a knife is to not let it get dull. People ask me why do my knives get dull. I see them rattling around in drawers, being used on plates, trays and stone tops or as a scraper and being put in the dishwasher.
If the knife is ONLY being used on a polyethylene or decent timber cutting board, then wiped and put away carefully......it should remian sharp a long time in normal home use.
One technique that I have adopted on knives with particularly soft steel is to use them with coarse edges not beyond 320 grit (American scale). Coarse edges don't work as well on hard vegetables in my experience but it takes less time to merely sharpen to a coarse, toothy edge, and this type of edge can hold a good level of bite for a fair amount of time even if it is a softer steel.
I have a Dexter Chinese Cleaver that is probably somewhat similar steel to a Vic, I like to bring it to 1000 grit (Japanese Scale) because it gets used for veggies a lot, and it holds it's edge sufficiently over the course of more than a month of use when being rotated with two other chef knives I use frequently. Still dices tomatoes to my satisfaction. However, I would not want to go over 1000 grit on that knife probably, I think it would loose some aggression and not hold on to a silky edge for very long.
I have a Dexter boning knife in the same steel that I chipped/rolled recently and only bothered to hit it with my 320 grit stone to work the chip out most of the way. The toothy edge suits that knife nicely. It slices open plastic packaging like a champ as well as acting like a long paring knife for many tasks.
The crux of what I'm suggesting is to try out low grit edges to reduce your sharpening times and see if it maintains the edges bite for longer.
Are you removing the burr? If not, buy a felt block and a strop. Also, a good wood end grain cutting board helps with edge retention.
Kuwabara white #2 tall petty 115 mm
Anryu AS petty 150 mm
Yu Kurosaki Raijin Gyuto 210 mm with custom olivewood handle
Tojiro ITK bread knife 270 mm
Morakniv Masur steak knives 120 mm
playingfetch wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 9:03 am
Are you removing the burr? If not, buy a felt block and a strop. Also, a good wood end grain cutting board helps with edge retention.
Great question, that could also be a factor (although less likely to have been an oversight of a pro shop sharpening them for you - still possible)
With that said, you can still de-burr you knives with just your existing stones and a wine cork with no need to spend any more money. And I definitely wouldn't throw in the towel on the sg2 or vg10 knives.
If you wanted to provide rough info regarding your location or where you got the knives professionally sharpened, they're is a chance someone here with experience could help you out or have an opinion about the sharpening service you received.. Not all pros are infallible.
Typically how much use do your knives get in a month and what are you usually cutting?
What steels are your knives?
Can you easily & cleanly cut newsprint just before a sharpening and how about after a sharpening?
Thanks
Cheers Grant
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!
for sure edge life will vary. i have a local pro that asked me if she needed her full size chef sharpened weekely. mind you its one of my custom XHP blades at 63rc and i told her yes since your used to 85% edge or better yes. she runs that blade about 30 out of 40 hours a week. as to what your running into the cheaper blades are for sure not goiong to take a great edge and not hold it long. i sharpen "stock" restaurant knives only to 220 grit and buff/strop the burr off no need to go higher. when i sharpen my work in my shop i go to 9 micron and strop the edge with that same wet belt to clean up any left over burr. used to have a buyer that every fall woudl send in there 8 knives to me to have them touched up and sent back (my deal is that i sharpen most of my knives for free you just have to cover shipping ) they got them touched up for the holiday season and dealt with the slow decline on the edge over the length of the year.
here at the house i dont get the privilege of 85% edge we are used to 95% and here that is a quick edge touched up with a 1200 grit DMT hone. could i make them sharper sure but not a need for home use. i touch up my mini chef before i break down a case of chicken for the freezer and its just fine same can be said when we butcher a deer. canning a few pounds of beets no worries makes quick work.
ok now lest get back to the sharpening bit for any new sharpener i tell them get a sharpy and mark the edge. lock your wrist at what you think is the angle you want take one slice. take the knife off the hone and see where the sharpy is ground away. its maybe the fastest way to learn free hand sharpening. 2 for your better knives make sure you sharpen the burr off not buff it. the strop/ buff that taks away the burr will also slightly round the true edge.
well that was longer then i planned hope it helped and if need more info ill type more
