VG-10 Steel

[Kerneldrop]

What's the consensus on VG-10 steel?
I've noticed that many blacksmiths are churning out VG-10 and VG-10 variants knives recently.

[Bob Z]

Maybe that's all that they can get?

[salemj]

I'm not sure there's a consensus.

It is a hugely popular steel with suppliers and consumers. Like anything so popular, the magnitude of production and reception means there are lots of opportunities for mediocrity and criticism.

Shun has been using VG-10 and other minor tweaked versions ("VG-Max") for a long time. Shun knives are notorious for being in the hands of people that don't necessarily take care of them, and their steel is notorious for being a bit chippy in part because of this. This contributed to a lot of negative feelings about Shun knives as compared to some other Japanese options for years. However, other crossover brands have also used VG-10. And, as you state, VG-10 is also used by lots of smiths you can find on "Japanese" knife sites and storefronts. As you might imagine, how VG-10 performs varies wildly depending on who is making it AND who is using it. At this point, it also has a form of "name recognition" with consumers that gives it a certain power in the marketplace.

All that said, I think it is important to stress three things that are in tension. 1) Most of us like and talk about Japanese knives because we think notable Japanese knife makers have a good understanding of knives and steel. 2) Japanese knife makers helped develop and promote VG-10 steel specifically for kitchen knives and continue to stress it is a very good steel for kitchen knives despite the many extant alternatives. 3) Japanese knife makers - especially those who are tied more directly to Western market economics (meaning makers who have branded themselves and market themselves as "Japanese makers" outside of Japan with name recognition) are just as susceptible to the dynamics of Western markets as the rest of us. So, while VG-10 was developed for the right reasons and promoted for the right reasons, it is also true that it may continue to be promoted because it is cheaper, easier to work with, and easier to market than other, "better" steels in ways that may sometimes benefit the supplier more than the consumer. So, like many other products, it may be trustworthy and good, but just because it has someone's name attached to it (or someone's culture) doesn't mean that it is necessarily "better" than another option...and in some cases, it can be worse than other options despite the aura surrounding it.

I have little experience with VG-10. The stuff I have used was good for kitchen knives. But I tend to prefer other steels in the price points I shop at. I think that, if I were looking for knives in the $80-250 range, I would be a fool not to consider VG-10, but I can also state pretty strongly that I would probably prefer other steels even in that range due to my own habits, techniques, and preferences.

[jmcnelly85]

I’ve had my hands on some very good and very bad vg-10. I don’t know how close to a consensus the masses have on it, but my view on it is “just because it’s vg-10 doesn’t mean it’s bad, just because it’s vg-10 doesn’t mean it’s good.”

Tanaka does a fantastic job with his the steel.

[taz575]

VG-10 from good makers is good (Tanaka, Kurosaki, etc), VG-10 from not good makers isn't so good. It all depends on the heat treating! It can be gummy and hard to deburr. It can micro chip easily, too. The carbides are larger, which cause some of these issues. It looks like the steel manufacturers are tweaking the recipes, probably to help address some of these issues.

It's similar to the D2 steel and what's happened to it lately. D2 in ingot form (old technology) has big carbides and isn't great for fine edges and can be chippy (except for a few who have a good HT process nailed for that steel), but the same recipe D2 in powder metal or spray metal form has much smaller, better distributed carbides and performs really well and is much tougher than the regular ingot D2. Tweaking the recipe can be a good thing and it's still the same steel composition, so it may be named the same! People hate the conventional ingot D2, but love CPM D2 or SPB27 as one manufacturer calls it to show the spray form version is different than the ingot version.

I prefer G3 (Ginsan) over VG-10 for an entry level stainless. High hardness AEB-L is also pretty nice, too. Both sharpen up finer, easier and with less headaches removing the burr that VG-10 often has.

[Ourorboros]

There is the steel and there is the blacksmith. As long as the steel is decent, which VG-10 is, then it's all about the work of the smith. Heat treatment, profile, grind.
The steel has faults, but a good blacksmith minimizes them.

[Kerneldrop]

... It can be gummy and hard to deburr....

Thank you for the why behind it. I didn't know. I just knew it gets heavily criticized online, but it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I'll look into smaller vs larger carbides just to expand my knowledge a little bit.

How do you go about removing the hard-to-remove burrs? Just stay on the stones longer with lighter and lighter strokes?

[Kerneldrop]

I’ve had my hands on some very good and very bad vg-10. I don’t know how close to a consensus the masses have on it, but my view on it is “just because it’s vg-10 doesn’t mean it’s bad, just because it’s vg-10 doesn’t mean it’s good.”

Tanaka does a fantastic job with his the steel.

So far i haven't paid much attention to steel type other than "easier to sharpen vs harder to sharpen." I've just bought from popular blacksmiths and figured I'll roll with what I get. I'm not even a full-time home cook and I'm not a master sharpener...so, I figured any steel would work for me. I figure only high-volume users will know how good steel performs and feels on stones. I was curious because of the many recent offerings from several blacksmiths, and if you go off reddit you're better off making a knife out of a rock, lol.

I'll check out Tanaka.

[taz575]

Tanaka or Kurosaki are safe bets in most steel!

Stones longer can make the burr less, too, but sometimes you need to go slightly steeper (ie a micro bevel) to remove it by abrasion, sometimes it can be pulled off with a strop, like felt or coarser plain leather.

Think of a chocolate chip cookie. The chips are carbides, dough is the metal matrix. Bigger carbides means it's easier for them to chip out and makes the cookie more brittle. Smaller carbides mean it's harder to chip out or come out of the cookie, making the cookie tougher (good in this example, not in regular cookies!). When you take a bite into a cookie with bigger chips, it's more likely to break or crumble. So when large carbides are in the edge of the knife, there is less steel to support them and they may be easier to chip out in use or sharpening.

Steels if heat treated to higher rockwell, sometimes the gummy issue is lessened, but it may be more brittle. I see it usually run at 60, some places up to 61. In a clad knife, it's harder to test the rockwell going thru cladding, so it may be a spot check.

So same recipe, just regular chips vs mini chips, can make the end product better. So if Takefu (I think they do the VG10?) changes how the steel itself is made, that process may reduce the carbide size down, and make the steel tougher and easier to deburr since it's more consistent and possible increase the hardness, too.

Blacksmiths can sometimes break up larger carbides with forging processes, higher temperatures to dissolve the carbides, normalizing processes, but there is a limit to what they can do. Forging stainless steels is much harder and can reduce the carbon down, so most do not forge stainless, so VG-10 won't see many benefits from forging since it is usually supplied prelaminated, so there is minimal forging done. It can be normalized, thermocycled, annealed, etc to try to dissolve the larger carbides and make them reform into smaller carbides, but there is limited benefits to be gained, even going through all of these time consuming processes. I am guessing most places just blank out the blades, do the heat treating/tempering and don't go through extensive cycles.

[Jeff B]

VG10 is generally dogged by the "steel snobs" in the hobby. It is a very good steel for kitchen knives with much better edge retention than it gets credit for. The Tojiro DP is a VG10 knife that has been a staple in pro kitchens for a few decades, there is a reason it's still around. As far as sharpening, if you can sharpen a Victorinox, Wusthof or Henckels you'll have no trouble with VG10.

[mauichef]

As many have stated here....VG10 in the right hands rocks! The snobs hate it so I love it even more....just like my Shuns! It has been used by large and small makers for many years so not sure why you think its a recent thing unless I have missed a surge in its usage.

[Kerneldrop]

...The Tojiro DP is a VG10 knife that has been a staple in pro kitchens for a few decades, there is a reason it's still around....

The first Japanese knives I purchased was the DP 3 knife kit from CKTG. I guess that kick started this hobby.
They still occupy spots on my knife tower.

As many have stated here....VG10 in the right hands rocks! The snobs hate it so I love it even more....just like my Shuns! It has been used by large and small makers for many years so not sure why you think its a recent thing unless I have missed a surge in its usage.

I don't think it's necessarily a recent thing...I just noticed when looking at "new arrivals" across the 4-5 resellers I frequently look at -- that a lot of the "new arrivals" are VG10. Then I thought to myself that if VG10 was so bad then why would these makes use it....so that led to me posting here where I knew I would get facts.

[Bob Z]

Maybe there is so much VG10 these days because thats what they can get?

[Kerneldrop]

...

Thank you for your post.
I like the cookie analogy.
I knew there was a lot to metallurgy...and it seems there's a lot to it from the beginning stages all the way to the end.

[taz575]

Everything has gone up in price. Vg-10 can be good enough for many end users and if its available and inexpensive, its a great way for makers to get their name/brand out there to people in an affordable way.

I know from some steels I use, some are around $10/knife steel cost, others are $35+ just for the steel!

[Jeff B]

g...I just noticed when looking at "new arrivals" across the 4-5 resellers I frequently look at -- that a lot of the "new arrivals" are VG10. Then I thought to myself that if VG10 was so bad then why would these makes use it....so that led to me posting here where I knew I would get facts.

VG10 is a popular steel with most of the Takefu Village Smith's and Mark gets a lot of knives from them. They all do an excellent job with it too.

[JASinIL2006]

I have a Masakage Kumo in VG-10 from when Anryu was the blacksmith. It is very nice steel, probably a bit harder to sharpen than a non-stainless steel, but it holds a really decent edge for a very, very long time. I feel like the tradeoff for good VG-10 blades is that they stay usable sharp for longer than lots of other steels, but they're a bit more of a challenge to sharpen and they maybe don't stay wickedly sharp all that long.

In our house, they are knife of choice for when less-picky users need a blade that doesn't require a ton of maintenance.

[Kerneldrop]

I had to bring out my Tojiro DP 210mm with all this VG10 talk.
I just copied a CKTG finishing job 2k-5k-1micron strop.
I can be happy with any steel and I like this sleeker profile, so I'm a fan.

[TheLegalRazor]

I have experience with four VG-10 knives: Kurosaki Fujin, Shun Premier, Takamura Hammered, and Tojiro DP. I don't have issues with any of them.

[Radar53]

There is the steel and there is the blacksmith. As long as the steel is decent, which VG-10 is, then it's all about the work of the smith. Heat treatment, profile, grind.
The steel has faults, but a good blacksmith minimizes them.

I have a couple of VG10 knives a custom and a Shun paring. Like Ourorboros I think that it comes down to heat treatment. HT can be the making or breaking of a knife steel. The Shun (which I use every day) with a stated HRC of 60 (it feels to me it's maybe HRC 58) just feels pretty ordinary. It takes a good edge but not a great one and it doesn't seem to hang onto that edge particularly well.

The other from a South African knifemaker living in NZ, who is an engineer and specialises in heat treatments, is a totally different animal. It's HARD. Again guessing I would say HRC62+ and it takes & holds a really good edge.

Shun being a big global company has warranties, guarantees, refunds, reputation etc to worry about. So I wonder if their actual HRC is deliberately conservative, to avoid bogans just mistreating the blade and then claiming that the manufacturer is to blame by making faulty product??

The speedos in most modern cars are similarly conservative by 2 - 3 km/hr so they can't be sued because someone got a speeding ticket.