Gyuto upgrade

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Altadan
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Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan »

1)I'm a home cook
2) looking for a gyuto, flatter profile
3) 210mm
4)150-220$
5) I'm happy with either carbon, SClad, or perhaps a ginsan
6)Wa handle please
7) Shun Premier Chef, Kamo AS Nakiri, and a beater Zwilling
8)Knife skills are good
9)Techniques Varies with the ingredient and the mood, but the Kamo Nakiri has introduced me to chopping, and I'm hooked.
10)I know how to sharpen, and I love it.

Though I'm rather new here, I feel can make confessions here, so here goes.
Joining these forums and browsing CKTG, I don't really feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole.
No.
Falling down the rabbit hole happened when I picked up that Shun on a (wife's?) whim at Williams-sonoma four months ago,
followed by the purchase of that sharpening stone,
followed by knife-planet and Peter Nowlan's "sharpening school,"
followed by looking at Enso's and Miyabi's on Amazon,
followed by Yoshihiro,
by JCK
by KnifeJapan
and then somehow, I'm not sure how,
stumbling over to CKTG.
This place is not the rabbit hole.
This is the caterpillar smoking his pipe, puffing away on his hookah, offering commentary, comparisons, custom handles and a virtual-relationship with other knife crack-heads :shock: (forgive me the expression, I was alliterating). Anyway, with all that is out there, it is this forum, and Steve G's well-done vids, that has had me bringing my business to CKTG.
All that to say that I've fallen hard. But - my wife is still chill about all of this, so here I am :lol:
Ok, I said it.

Now, I've had this Shun premier for a while, and though it is thin, sharp, sharpens easily (as far as I'm concerned) and dices onions pretty snazzily,
I realized pretty early that it's got a lot more belly than I'm used to, or that I care for. I was used to my Zwilling Twin Pollux, which was low, flat, and just different.
Then I thought I'd try out a nakiri, and the Shiro Kamo was it.
In the short time I've had it I like to think that I've learnt a lot. I now know I love chopping anything that is choppable (though the family doesn't care for everything being, well, chopped thin...)
I've learnt that I like having a tip, and I've learnt that I rather use one knife for most tasks, and a paring for the rest.
Hence, I'm looking for a gyuto to take the place of both the Kamo and the Shun.
Most of my cutting tasks consists of slicing and dicing veggies, fruit, and some boneless meat\fish (onions, carrots, potatoes and sweet-potatoes is what concerns me most)

The knives that caught my eye (being both flat, and having some taper to a fine-tip) are these (price: low to high)
- Gihei B#2 210 (oos – 160$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2gy21.html
- Tanaka Damascus Gyuto 210mm (179$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/tanakagyuto2.html
- Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm (190$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html
- Yahiko White #2 Nashiji Gyuto 210mm (199$)(ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yawh2nagy21.html
- Kurosaki AS Gyuto 210mm (oos 210$) (ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kuasgy21.html
- Shibata Kotetsu R-2 Gyuto 210mm (270$) (slightly over my belly-button)

Questions I've had on my mind, both in general and in particular to the above knives, are as follows:
a. What makes for a "workhorse" knife? What does that term mean?
b. Do KU finishes generally get food sticking to them, or are they non-stick? (potatoes, onions, carrots)
c. Does the stickege depend more on the grind?
d. What is it about a knife that determines whether it will wedge in carrots, sweet potatoes (or even onions)?

I apologize I was being long-winded. I'm happy to hear of any other blade I might have missed. I'm in no rush to buy if its our of stock (just consumer's red-eye, I suppose)
Gratefully,
Dan
“If we conquer our passions it is more from their weakness than from our strength.”
― François de La Rochefoucauld
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Kit Craft
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

Remember what the dormouse said...

Let me try to answer some of these questions though as a home cook I may look at things a bit differently.

For me a workhorse is your daily user, something that can power through most things without worry. While not a beater it is not overly delicate. This is the knife you gravitate to much of the time and feel confident using. As such many people call knives that are built with some heft a workhorse but that is not a necessity. Ryusen, Fujiwara and many other makers have thin knives that still have a workhorse grind. They simply are not so thin behind the edge that they are delicate.

Most KU knives that I have used are either a true or foe wide bevel but they surely not full height grinds at the very least. They do well with food separation and typically don't exhibit a lot of sticking. Wedging is more likely. These are generalizations, though, and I have not used every KU knife there is.

Grind does have a lot to do with stickage but so does the edge and finish. More so than anything I think it has to do with technique. I have knives that if used very slowly or for push cuts just suck, they stick like nothing you have ever seen. But use a draw cut or pull cut or chop with some speed and that calms down, a lot. However, the flatter the grind, the more sticking I notice.

Your last question is a good one, and I am not sure that I know how to answer it. Wedging is an interesting thing. For me, flat ground blades get stuck in onions but wide bevels come to a full stop in large carrots. Thin convex grinds seem to fly through everything and heavy convex grinds seem to power through most everything.

On your list I think that the Gihei is the best bang for the buck and a hell of a solid performer and is low maint. The Tanaka is a hell of an all around performer. Kurosaki knives are great in general and good all around users as well but I prefer Tanaka. I did not like the three Moritaka knives that i had but I do not wish to get into that at the moment other than to say I was unhappy with the quality of the build.

I have not used the Shibata but I like his work in general and it gets rave reviews. It seems to be more laser like, by description. That means it should ghost about anything. While it has a harder to sharpen steel it should be very, very thing behind the edge and that should ease things up a bit.

The Yahiko knives, overall, seem to offer tremendous value and I have yet to see any negative reviews of them. I think if it were me I would lean that way if for no other reason than it being undiscovered yet loved by the few who have tried it.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Robstreperous »

Hey. Welcome. A couple of quick answers:

Altadan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:41 pm
Questions I've had on my mind, both in general and in particular to the above knives, are as follows:
a. What makes for a "workhorse" knife? What does that term mean?
b. Do KU finishes generally get food sticking to them, or are they non-stick? (potatoes, onions, carrots)
c. Does the stickege depend more on the grind?
d. What is it about a knife that determines whether it will wedge in carrots, sweet potatoes (or even onions)?

I apologize I was being long-winded. I'm happy to hear of any other blade I might have missed. I'm in no rush to buy if its our of stock (just consumer's red-eye, I suppose)
Gratefully,
Dan
a. What makes for a "workhorse" knife? What does that term mean?
>>> Loose term. Something heavier and more robust than a "Laser". Heavier, thicker spine. Again. Loose term.
b. Do KU finishes generally get food sticking to them, or are they non-stick? (potatoes, onions, carrots)
>>> Kurouchi finishes normally imply better food release than average.
c. Does the stickege depend more on the grind?
>>>> A lot of people I respect say yes. For me it's always seemed to depend more directly on the polish and smoothness of the blade face. Rough and irregular equals generally better release. Tradeoff here is rough and irregular also tends to provide resistance while slicing.
d. What is it about a knife that determines whether it will wedge in carrots, sweet potatoes (or even onions)?
>>>> The grind. Angle of the edge and the shape left after the metal is removed from the blade face to form the edge.
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Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan »

Hmmm... thanks for the answers.

So "workhorse" might mean - regular\daily driver,
or it might mean not-so-delicate knife (but not a beater), or both. I think I see.

So if indeed "lasers" and "workhorses" are mutually exclusive terms (though loose, and Kit defines it more about comfort, regular daily user, etc) and if laser can ghost through anything, as you say, is preference for a "workhorse" simply a personal one? Why wouldn't everyone want to ghost through stuff? (this might be general discussion sorta stuff).

In any case, Kit, from what you say, it seems convex grinds are the most versatile, yes? Any tip, before I go back to the vids, on which of the above have this convex grind to it?
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Robstreperous »

Altadan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:29 pm
So if indeed "lasers" and "workhorses" are mutually exclusive terms (though loose, and Kit defines it more about comfort, regular daily user, etc) and if laser can ghost through anything, as you say, is preference for a "workhorse" simply a personal one? Why wouldn't everyone want to ghost through stuff? (this might be general discussion sorta stuff).
There are advantages when using some styles of cutting -- chopping comes to mind -- to having a heavier blade.

There are also certain tasks -- cutting through butternut or acorn squash comes to mind -- where you really don't want a fine delicate blade. Bad things can happen.....

Lasers also - generally speaking - require a little bit more mindfulness, care and attention during use. Again -- generally speaking -- they're a little more delicate. Sometimes... you just want to cook. Ya know?

That said I probably use my lasers 4 times more than any of the other style knives I own.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

Altadan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:29 pm Hmmm... thanks for the answers.

So "workhorse" might mean - regular\daily driver,
or it might mean not-so-delicate knife (but not a beater), or both. I think I see.

So if indeed "lasers" and "workhorses" are mutually exclusive terms (though loose, and Kit defines it more about comfort, regular daily user, etc) and if laser can ghost through anything, as you say, is preference for a "workhorse" simply a personal one? Why wouldn't everyone want to ghost through stuff? (this might be general discussion sorta stuff).

In any case, Kit, from what you say, it seems convex grinds are the most versatile, yes? Any tip, before I go back to the vids, on which of the above have this convex grind to it?
Maybe I didn't put that so well. A laser is a very thin knife that goes through anything with ease but will show sticking. A workhorse will be more robust than a laser. I suppose that either could be used as a daily driver. My fault.

Um, as for convex. There is a lot that goes into that. Some wide bevel knives are convex too but only partial height convex. More often I find them to be concave, though. As for versatility, that depends and again this is purely opinion based. I do prefer a convex to a flat or concave partial height grind.

These terms are subjective but I prefer a knife that falls between workhorse and laser. I got a chance to use an Ikeda and that is about where it falls. Somewhere between my Kono and my Tanaka. I wish more knives were like this.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Lepus »

The term workhorse has such varied meanings it's not a useful term. Sometimes it's a heavier knife, sometimes it's a knife the owner uses often, sometimes it's a knife the user prefers to use when he has more food than usual to cut. My Kanehiro and Kashima couldn't be much more different, but they could both be called workhorses.

Wedging is primarily a function of the grind behind the edge up to the spine. When you suffer wedging, the width of the knife is pushing the food being cut apart, splitting it like a maul. What knives wedge through what food gets a little complicated. A knife thin right behind the edge with a high grind and a thick spine might actually cut most carrots well but struggle with taller onions; even though carrots are harder, the knife's grind could be tall enough it gets through the average carrot without getting to the thicker parts of the knife. The only knives that do well with almost anything are the ones that start and end thin.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jbart65 »

Altadan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:41 pm
- Gihei B#2 210 (oos – 160$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2gy21.html
- Tanaka Damascus Gyuto 210mm (179$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/tanakagyuto2.html
- Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm (190$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html
- Yahiko White #2 Nashiji Gyuto 210mm (199$)(ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yawh2nagy21.html
- Kurosaki AS Gyuto 210mm (oos 210$) (ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kuasgy21.html
- Shibata Kotetsu R-2 Gyuto 210mm (270$) (slightly over my belly-button)
Funny post, Dan. Welcome to the mosh pit. (-:

I own the Tanaka and Yahiko, owned the Gihei and used the 210 and 240 versions of the Kuro. No experience yet with Shibata and Moritaka.

Here are my recommendations based on your preferences:

1)Yahiko Nashiji. This is the flattest of the traditional gyutos on your list (excluding Shibata).

It's quickly become one of my favorite knives. Very good fit and finish. Attractive. Topnotch grind. Excellent profile for chopping and pushing, but it slide-rocks quite well. Yes, a toucher shorter than I would have preferred. Yet I just find it so comfy in the hand and versatile, too. More elegant than a lot of stuff I've tried.

2)Gihei. This is a big-bodied knife that wears its shape exceedingly well. Think Serena Williams. Nice flat spot for chopping, but the sharp curve near the tip aids in rocking and allows for precise work. Great grind and the B#2 holds a longer edge than the Yahiko's white steel.

Personally I found the Gihei on the cusp of my preferred weight range and the tip was a bit tougher to sharpen than the tip of other knives. I think that would not be a problem for me now, though. More of a sharpener issue than a knife issue.

3)Kurosaki AS. This Kurosaki is in the vein of other Takefu village knives. Good all-round profile accented toward push cutting. Chops very well, though, and is a decent rocker. Nice tip for detailed work, but not as thin as the Yahiko.

I prefer the Kurosaki laser that's also AS steel. It has a thinner tip, weighs a bit less and really is a high-level performer. The laser is more polished, but the kurouchi on the AS is really nice looking too. A more modern kurouchi look.

Hard to argue with either version of AS steel. Both Kuros take and hold an fine edge and I did not find them to be brittle. I owned the laser and only sold because my Koishi was fairly similar.

4)Tanaka Sekiso. My favorite knife of the bunch, but the one with the most belly. The Sekiso is also blue #2 like the Gihei and I prefer it. A bit easier to sharpen. Holds its edge just as long and stays quite keen well after a fresh sharpening.

The handle is mediocre and I had mine replaced, but the damascus is very attractive. The knife is fully reactive, of course, and caring for it can be finicky until a patina develops.

This is my best all-round knife. An excellent rocker when I am dealing with herbs but it's a surprisingly good push cutter and chopper. I just slightly modify my technique to avoid inconplete cuts.
Last edited by jbart65 on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

jbart65 wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:32 am
Altadan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:41 pm
- Gihei B#2 210 (oos – 160$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2gy21.html
- Tanaka Damascus Gyuto 210mm (179$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/tanakagyuto2.html
- Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm (190$) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html
- Yahiko White #2 Nashiji Gyuto 210mm (199$)(ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yawh2nagy21.html
- Kurosaki AS Gyuto 210mm (oos 210$) (ssclad) https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kuasgy21.html
- Shibata Kotetsu R-2 Gyuto 210mm (270$) (slightly over my belly-button)
Funny post, Dan. Welcome to the mosh pit. (-:

I own the Tanaka and Yahiko, owned the Gihei and used the 210 and 240 versions of the Kuro. No experience yet with Shibata and Moritaka.

Here are my recommendations based on your preferences:

1)Yahiko Nashiji. This is the flattest of the traditional gyutos on yours list (excluding Shibata).

It's quickly become one of my favorite knives. Very good fit and finish. Attractive. Topnotch grind. Excellent profile for chopping and pushing, but it slide-rocks quite well. Yes, a. toucher shorter than I would have preferred. Yet I just find it so comfy in the hand and versatile, too. More elegant than a lot of stuff I've tried.

2)Gihei. This is a big-bodied knife that wears its shape exceedingly well. Think Serena Williams. Nice flat spot for chopping, but the sharp curve near the tip aids in rocking and allows for precise work. Great grind and the B#2 holds a longer edge than the Yahiko's white steel.

Personally I found the Gihei on the cusp of my preferred weight range and the tip was a bit tougher to sharpen than the tip of other knives. I think that would not be a problem for me now, though. More of a sharpener issue than a knife issue.

3)Kurosaki AS. This Kurosaki is in the vein of other Takefu village knives. Good all-round profile accented toward push cutting. Chops very well, though, and is a decent rocker. Nice tip for detailed work, but not as thin as the Yahiko.

I prefer the Kurosaki laser that's also AS steel. It has a thinner tip, weighs a bit less and really is a high-level performer. The laser is more polished, but the kurouchi on the AS is really nice looking too. A more modern kurouchi look.

Hard to argue with either version of AS steel. Both Kuros take and hold an fine edge and I did not find them to be brittle. I owned the laser and only sold because my Koishi was fairly similar.

3)Tanaka Sekiso. My favorite knife of the bunch, but the one with the most belly. The Sekiso is also blue #2 like the Gihei and I prefer it. A bit easier to sharpen. Holds its edge just as long and stays quite keen well after a fresh sharpening.

The handle is mediocre and I had mine replaced, but the damascus is very attractive. The knife is fully reactive, of course, and caring for it can be finicky until a patina develops.

This is my best all-round knife. An excellent rocker when I am dealing with herbs but it's a surprisingly good push cutter and chopper. I just slightly modify my technique to avoid inconplete cuts.
Hell of a write up, as usual!

I agree that the Tanaka has more of a curve throughout but I find that profile to be very good all around. It takes only a modicum of motion in your push/pull or chop to avoid accordions or at least for me.

I do not agree with the handle statement. I think it is one of the best basic ho/horn d handles I have used. In fact, I ordered my Tanaka KU directly from Japan just so it would come with that same handle! Now, if a D handle and or Ho wood is not your thing, I get it, but it is still better than loads of similar handles.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jbart65 »

Perhaps you are right on the handle, Kit. Been so long I can't remember. Plus, I hate D handles. Even though I pinch, they bother me as a lefty. May have influenced me.

On the Tanaka profile, I quite agree. What I find remarkable about the profile is that it excels at rocking - and it excels at pushing and chopping too. About the only semi-negative I can say is the tip is not as thin as I would like. That said, the tip enables me to do whatever I need to do.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

jbart65 wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:18 pm Perhaps you are right on the handle, Kit. Been so long I can't remember. Plus, I hate D handles. Even though I pinch, they bother me as a lefty. May have influenced me.

On the Tanaka profile, I quite agree. What I find remarkable about the profile is that it excels at rocking - and it excels at pushing and chopping too. About the only semi-negative I can say is the tip is not as thin as I would like. That said, the tip enables me to do whatever I need to do.
Not to get too far off topic here but have you considered an Ikeda? It does not have the Tanaka profile but it is similar in many ways. A very similar grind but thinner across the board, better taper too. Good height, the new version of the 240 is 52mm at the heel.

Edit: That might be a good suggestion for the OP too. At least the 210 has a fairly flat profile with a gentle sweep from the front 1/3 to the tip.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan »

effery, Kit, thanks so much for the input thus far!
Seems like all the watching and reading has left me with a narrow, excellent, hard-to-choose-from crop of knives. The praises, while diverse, are not lacking for any of them. J

Let me try to summarize thus far:

- 1. Gihei B#2 210mm, 175g (160$ oos)[ssclad-4-ez-maintenance] Big-bodied-Serena-Williams-beastly-world-champion-yet-strangely-graceful(?). Nice flat spot for chopping. Swept up curve for rocking, good edge retention, and great grind.

- 2. Tanaka Damascus B#2 Gyuto 210mm, 141g (179$) curved\belly, great rocker (needs more technique to chop, not as much belly as Shun, just curve throughout), dam attractive but could use a patina (forced?). [Favored by Kit & Jeffery]

- 3. Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm (190$) - Questionable build quality?

- 4. Yahiko White #2 Nashiji Gyuto 215mm, 153g (199$) [ssclad-4-ez-maintenance], flattest, excels as chopper\pusher very good f&f, attractive, more elegant than most, medium edge retention, and topnotch grind. [no negative reviews thus far. Also, requires more sharpening = good for relaxation]

- 5. Kurosaki AS KU Gyuto 215mm, 159g (210$ oos) [ssclad-4-ez-maintenance], all-around profile (flat+curve+tip?), leans to push n' chop, and good edge retention.

- 6. Shibata Kotetsu R-2 Gyuto 210mm (270$) - true laser, pretty flat profile, excellent edge retention.

- 7. Ikeda AS Gyuto 215mm 158g, (220$) - laser-like, great taper, fine tip, fairly flat with a sweep at the end. [What is the OP, Kit?]

So, I did miss the Ikeda, probably because I haven't run into it so much on the forums. 49mm is plenty for me. Looks pretty, too, and f&f seems up there as well. This would be the opposite of the Gihei, however, eh? More buck, and different bang (thin vs. Serena Williams).

what sort of grind do the Tanaka and the Gihei have? Both convex? Both would blow and\or power thru the carrots\sweet-pots, onions? Is this question redundant? Should I just chop the carrots into smaller portions before hacking at them? Would you avoid using an Ikeda to cut up your sweet potatoes?
I'm really just hoping to buy one knife, and quit the journey before it gets too adventurous, ya know?

[me thinks me starting to lean, but me wants more opinions before me say]
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

Original post or poster. I don't eat sweet potatoes but it does fine with squash. The Tanaka has a convex grind and I am not sure how you would refer to the Gihei grind, partial height for sure. I no longer have one so I am going by memory. You shouldn't have issues with carrots unless you have a monster carrot with a 3-4 inch diameter and you try to cut it in half using no kind of force. I actually saw a fellow do that in a video. I've never seen such a large carrot before but I digress.

Just one knife, you say. You have a good list there and I think I could do with any of them for my only knife. For me it would probably be the Tanaka followed by the Ikeda but I have not tried the Yahiko or the Shibata. I like lasers but the Tanaka has a grind similar to a laser while retaining some mass, which gives me confidence. It feels quite large for a 210 but even for someone, like me, who likes smaller knives it is comfortable.

I don't have experience with loads of knives like a lot of other guys on here and I have odd taste so keep that in mind. I have bought a few knives on Jeffry's suggestion and liked every one of them. Something else to consider too. :)
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by SteveG »

@Dan,

Your Shun Premier is pretty light and nimble, so I would put all these knives we're discussing into a few groups:

Really light and nimble = Ikeda AS, Shibata Kotetsu R-2 (this could fit into the category below as well because it carries a lot of blade height throughout, being a Bunka shape and a 210 length)

Fairly light and nimble = Tanaka Damascus, Moritaka AS (this is a tweener and could fit in the above category as well)

Medium light with a more workhorse feel = Gihei B#2 Nashiji, Yahiko W#2, Kurosaki AS KU

I think the Gihei definitely has the most weight forward, powerful feel - quite different from your Premier. In start contrast, the Ikeda AS 210 I played with was VERY thin overall and REALLY thin at the tip. I thought it was too flexy for my tastes and the flex made it harder to sharpen because of the blade deflection on the stone if you used much pressure at all, especially at the tip.

What's your preference on handling? This should really help narrow things down. They're all great knives :-).
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

SteveG wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm @Dan,

Your Shun Premier is pretty light and nimble, so I would put all these knives we're discussing into a few groups:

Really light and nimble = Ikeda AS, Shibata Kotetsu R-2 (this could fit into the category below as well because it carries a lot of blade height throughout, being a Bunka shape and a 210 length)

Fairly light and nimble = Tanaka Damascus, Moritaka AS (this is a tweener and could fit in the above category as well)

Medium light with a more workhorse feel = Gihei B#2 Nashiji, Yahiko W#2, Kurosaki AS KU

I think the Gihei definitely has the most weight forward, powerful feel - quite different from your Premier. In start contrast, the Ikeda AS 210 I played with was VERY thin overall and REALLY thin at the tip. I thought it was too flexy for my tastes and the flex made it harder to sharpen because of the blade deflection on the stone if you used much pressure at all, especially at the tip.

What's your preference on handling? This should really help narrow things down. They're all great knives :-).
I find that flex on the stones to be true of all lasers that I own. I only find it to be bothersome at the tip as it requires a little extra care. I find your classification of the Gihei as a medium light weight interesting. What would be medium heavy and heavy? My Watanabe is a heavy in my mind, no questions asked but I don't remember the Gihei being much less beefy.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Robstreperous »

Hey Altadan,
SteveG wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm What's your preference on handling? This should really help narrow things down. They're all great knives :-).
Yes... what's your preference on handling. I'm about to make a recommendation based upon your orignial note you own a nakiri that you like and this knife will be used mostly for slicing and dicing and you say you're hooked on chopping. If you're looking for something that drops through product like it's cutting air this is it..... but maybe that's not what you're after.
Lepus
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Lepus »

The stock handle on my Tanaka was sloppy work. As shipped I would call it well below average. After some clean up it is fine, but I definitely would not call it great. It's miles behind a Konosuke handle and even my slightly crooked Moritaka handle had better lines as shipped. I was aware the handle would not be great going in and that didn't bother me, but is not one of the knife's strengths.

I thought about this overnight. I get wanting to have one knife that can do and be everything, but you're getting into particulars to a pretty extreme degree and you seem to want knives that excel in multiple ways. You are likely to the point it's going to be hard to get just one and be finished. Most of us have multiple knives, quite a few more than three, because we work in restaurants or have diverse diets and we want knives that aren't just adequate but rather amazing for any given task. For better and worse there is no one knife that we agree is just amazing at everything. I don't know if you're there yet, but you're certainly close.

There isn't 210mm gyuto on the market at any price that will match your Shiro Kamo as a chopper. I might even go as far to say it's impossible. 210mm just isn't enough edge length to include a raised tip and that much flat area. When you start looking at knives with very low tips like a Takeda that start to approach a nakiri for chopping, you're looking at a proto santoku profile and that isn't going to have the extra curvature that lets you use these knives for smooth long push cuts and likely because of more height toward the tip isn't going to give you the benefits of a thinner tip that shoots through alliums and the like. Knives with elongated tips have less surface area and as a result don't need to worry as much about friction and through the cut.

If I had to without context pick a knife as requested it would be a Kanehiro in aogami super right outside your budget. I don't know how they compare with the Yahiko, which looks similar in many regards, but they're well proven knives and considering you want this to be the last knife I think you'd be making a mistake by not stretching the extra $20. Like the Gihei it's an authoritative knife that does a lot of the work for you and like the Moritaka it offers a nearly ideal steel with a good heat treatment. The Kanehiro has a nice tip and neutral profile that will do anything pretty well, too. I suspect the Gihei would be a well informed pick, though I haven't used one. But if you would be open to keeping the Shiro Kamo for some things I think you should get something much lighter to compliment it rather than replace it. The Ikeda would be a great choice. I have tried his 240mm KS profiled knife. That Ikeda was excellent as a thin gyuto and a solid stand in for a slicer, but it will never chop like your nakiri or the heavier knives we're discussing.
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Kit Craft
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft »

Lepus wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:09 pm The stock handle on my Tanaka was sloppy work. As shipped I would call it well below average. After some clean up it is fine, but I definitely would not call it great. It's miles behind a Konosuke handle and even my slightly crooked Moritaka handle had better lines as shipped. I was aware the handle would not be great going in and that didn't bother me, but is not one of the knife's strengths.
Sloppy in what way? I had a very slight step but I have had that on $300 knives. Collar was tight, no tang gap, rounded edges, no splits etc. Straight installation. Basic or simple I can agree with but poor quality I can not.
Lepus
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Lepus »

It had a sizable lip from the handle to the ferrule, a recess where the handle was cut or chipped deeper than the ferrule line that I ended up sealing with a mixture of wood glue and sawdust, and extremely rough sanding work. The lip beneath the ferrule was rough enough to splinter.

If you got a good one, or even if Tanaka's handle supplier has gotten better in the past few years, that's great, but I did not and that's a fairly common experience. The knife is great and one hell of a bargain for the price, but of the dozen or so horn capped handles I've bought my Tanaka's was unquestionably the worst out of the box.
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jmcnelly85 »

I'd describe the Gihei grind as moving flat from the relatively thick spine towards a subtly convexed second grind from the middle of the blade road to the edge. It's thin behind the edge compared to all knives not made in Japan, but relatively thick compared to other Japanese knives. As the knife tapers toward the tip, it gets surprisingly thin. The mass and execution of the grind certainly compensate for its lack of overall thinness.

The blue steel is also an exceptional rendition of blue steel, takes and holds some of the consistently best edges I can put on knives.
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