Harder versions of white and blue
Harder versions of white and blue
I'll be looking for possibly a santoku or maybe a 150 petty in the near future. What are some of the harder examples YSS carbons available? Money, handle, price, home or pro, stainless clad vs soft steel, etc....none of it matters. It's all good. Cheers.
- lsboogy
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
You could probably bring even W#2 steel up to 67 or 68 HRC, but I would guess it would be very brittle when that hard. Most of the usable blades with 63 HRC or better are going to be powder steels.
Each maker will have their own techniques for heat treat and work hardening of steels that get them hard but not too brittle. Carter Hopkins has a heat treat for 52100 that goes into the 62-63 range and the blades are not brittle. Most AS and Blue steel knives end up in the low 60's so they don't get brittle and chip when used.
Kohetsu makes HAP40 blades at 65 HRC, and there are some CPM and ZDP steels that can get even harder. These powder metal blades take a bit longer to sharpen, and require a better technique to sharpen, but the edge lasts very well.
I would only start looking into these kinds of things if your techniques are good (a line cook at my weekend job chips my blades when he gets his hands on them - my daughter has better knife skills than he does) and you are a proficient sharpener (or know someone who is - not the local grocer who uses a belt sander and buffing wheel).
Each maker will have their own techniques for heat treat and work hardening of steels that get them hard but not too brittle. Carter Hopkins has a heat treat for 52100 that goes into the 62-63 range and the blades are not brittle. Most AS and Blue steel knives end up in the low 60's so they don't get brittle and chip when used.
Kohetsu makes HAP40 blades at 65 HRC, and there are some CPM and ZDP steels that can get even harder. These powder metal blades take a bit longer to sharpen, and require a better technique to sharpen, but the edge lasts very well.
I would only start looking into these kinds of things if your techniques are good (a line cook at my weekend job chips my blades when he gets his hands on them - my daughter has better knife skills than he does) and you are a proficient sharpener (or know someone who is - not the local grocer who uses a belt sander and buffing wheel).
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Hi Kalaeb. Yes just high hardness. I would prefer AS.
Two that I've found on the site are the Gihei with blue #2 at 62-63 Hrc...and Koishi with AS at 63-65 Hrc.
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
I remember those. I think the first ones had problems with chipping.gladius wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:04 pm Fujiwara TF Nashiji comes to mind...
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_9.html
- lsboogy
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Hard steel is chippy if not done right. And the harder the steel the more likely it will chip. I work in an area that the machinists get very hard steel tools (70+ HRC) but they cost a mint and anything that is above 66 IMHO is either an exotic ($$$$$$) or extremely brittle.
I would steer you to the Kohetsu HAP40 stuff if you are really interested in high hardness chef knives - I have a love for them
I would steer you to the Kohetsu HAP40 stuff if you are really interested in high hardness chef knives - I have a love for them
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Take a look at Watanabe. He takes his to the max between 63 and 65.
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
The AS in the kioshi line was (is) really, really great edge retention! It felt right up there with Moritakas. I couldnt figure out which was better.
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
it has to be TFTFTFTF, tf's don't chip with the right board, technique and sharpening. I believe he is one of the only smiths who take the steel (white 1 and blue super) to almost the absolute usable max. His nashiji is softer than his maboroshi and with the denka being the hardest.
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'm leaning towards the Moritaka. I'll have a peak at the others as well...
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
desol wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:05 pmI remember those. I think the first ones had problems with chipping.gladius wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:04 pm Fujiwara TF Nashiji comes to mind...
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_9.html
The problems with high HRC whites / blues are user techniques.
I took a TF through an entire case of butternut and acorn squash splitting them.
No chips.
It’s all end user and people don’t like to admit fault, blame the smith complain to mark and then mark stops featuring him.
His products are an absolute joy to work with if you use proper technique and skill.
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
The problems with high HRC whites / blues are user techniques.
It’s all end user and people don’t like to admit fault, blame the smith complain to mark and then mark stops featuring him.
tf's don't chip with the right board, technique and sharpening
---I think the first ones had problems with chipping
Not necessarily so. I have 5 TF's: 4 Nashiji and a Denka used mostly on a Hi-Soft board and two of the Nashiji gyutos micro-chipped initially until I gave them their first full sharpening, then no chipping. The other two Nashiji and Denka have never had any chipping.
I will say chipping can and does occur as a result of of bad technique, board, etc. but not always. Some knives come with a frail edge.
Also some hard steel is just prone to chipping like my Moritakas. I've had three that chipped frequently including my 210 Cleaver, 250 Gyuto and 240 Kiritsuke but two that have not: the 170 AS Bunka and Mega Nakiri in B#2. Sometimes I have fixed the chips but allot of times I just live with them until the next sharpening and then don't always fully get the chips out, the knives cut fine.
- lsboogy
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
If a blade is chippy, I find it hard to understand how sharpening can make it any different. The work hardening and heat treat are not surface features,
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
You can change the angle of the edge over time and/or add micro bevels to aid in edge stability.
TFs for example are usually considered "chippy" and IMO too thin behind the edge. Some more obtuse sharpening helps with the issue.
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Some knives come with very thin edges, TF is one but I've also had a Watanabe come with a 7d edge and a Shiraki single bevel with a 9d edge. I have decent knife skills but not at the level to use those type of edges without microchipping. Once I eased up the edge the microchip issues largely disappeared.
- Jeff B
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
The edges of some knives are also fatigued coming from the smiths shop depending on how they were sharpened making them chippy. Sharpening and exposing fresh steel stops the chipping. This is not a new or uncommon phenomenon.
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue
Have spent the last decade in pro kitchens. Started in the game with crappy soft cutco knives. Worked with them for the first year or so while I was broke and learning. Eventually you get to the point where the tool, not the technique, is the limitation. I have tried many steels/brands over the years in real life kitchens. Moritaka kiritsuke in AS was one of my first J-knives (I don't count the globals I had at one point ), still gets frequent use and is good steel. But there is no comparison to my TF maboroshi (white #1). Super quick and easy to sharpen, and takes an incredible edge and just holds it. I haven't tried his AS Denka line, but my maboroshi gyuto has the best carbon steel I've ever used. A few micro chips developed from the very sharp out of box edge. A full progression later and this hasn't been an issue, and this knife doesn't get babied.
Re: Harder versions of white and blue
That's good to hear. I didn't know what to make of it, only that I knew his knives were hardened up quite a bit. Almost a pseudo Honyaki.Nmiller21k wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pmdesol wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:05 pmI remember those. I think the first ones had problems with chipping.gladius wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:04 pm Fujiwara TF Nashiji comes to mind...
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_9.html
The problems with high HRC whites / blues are user techniques.
I took a TF through an entire case of butternut and acorn squash splitting them.
No chips.
It’s all end user and people don’t like to admit fault, blame the smith complain to mark and then mark stops featuring him.
His products are an absolute joy to work with if you use proper technique and skill.
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.