Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

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Ourorboros
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Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Ourorboros » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:59 am

I came across this chisel sharpening video and I just can't agree with anything except the need burr removal.
But this guy is apparently an experienced woodworker and teacher. Is there something fundamentally different about sharpening chisels? I admit to being a kitchen and edc knife sharpener.

He takes an awful lot of passes on diamond stones, it seems like a lot of stock removal.
He takes the edge of the chisel off the stone at the end of each path, purposely rounding the end.
He doesn't remove the burr until after using his fine stone.
He puts all his weight into the chisel when stropping.

Woodworkers, please educate me on why chisel sharpening is so much different than knife sharpening. What qualities of the steel or stone benefit from this kind of treatment? Or is this a case of somebody being unskilled at one aspect of a craft that he is otherwise good at? Perhaps it's because he probably started on natural western stones?
It kind of bends my mind and I'd like clarification.

slickmamba
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by slickmamba » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 am

he is definitely going very hard, but looks moderately similar to single bevel sharpening. He even puts a hamaguri edge on it, haha.

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ken123
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by ken123 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:05 am

Not my taste either. To go from 1200 grit to Cro strop in one jump isnt ideal at all. Hard pressure on a strop - no. Besides Cro bars are not at all precise. Note these are not Japanese chisels. I have stones - waterstones - specific for the front and back sides of Japanese chisels. Most high level users of chisels and plane blades use Japanese natural stones.

To each his own. I have users who can shave their heads with chisels using my compounds :) Appalled? Ive certainly seen worse and better.

---
Ken

Kalaeb
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Kalaeb » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:09 pm

Meh. If it works for him and his purpose then all the better. Ask 10 people here how they sharpen and you will get 10 different answers.

Rufus Leaking
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Rufus Leaking » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:09 pm

+1 regarding the 10 different approaches to sharpening chisels. All my chisels are Lie-Nielson- epitome tools. I use a Veritas honing guide, and I set it up with precision. I would never subject either my stones nor my tools to what this clown appears to be doing. Crazy amount of force applied. Sharpening a chisel has about as much to do with sharpening a knife as driving a bus has to do with riding a moped. Unless it is a specialty chisel, the blade is going to be flat, square and single bevel, so the use of a guide is a complete necessity unless your tools are shit.

Ourorboros
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Ourorboros » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:56 pm

Rufus Leaking wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:09 pm
+1 regarding the 10 different approaches to sharpening chisels. All my chisels are Lie-Nielson- epitome tools. I use a Veritas honing guide, and I set it up with precision. I would never subject either my stones nor my tools to what this clown appears to be doing. Crazy amount of force applied. Sharpening a chisel has about as much to do with sharpening a knife as driving a bus has to do with riding a moped. Unless it is a specialty chisel, the blade is going to be flat, square and single bevel, so the use of a guide is a complete necessity unless your tools are shit.
Which is why I ask.
I don't understand the amount of force used and why he purposely convexes his bevel.

Rufus Leaking
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Rufus Leaking » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:16 pm

The biggest problem with YouTube vids is the fact that anyone can put one up. I recently did a house in hardwood flooring, and decided to brush up in case I might be overlooking something, and I quit after the fifth video I watched. Saw stuff that I knew better in all five, and I’d never installed a hardwood floor. I’d repaired several, but never did an install from scratch. Not one of the vids used a datum reference, all five had different starting methods, and none of them were correct. If you REALLY want to see ass clownery up close and personal, watch ANY video relating to HVAC. It’s kinda funny, you see guys with proper tools and equipment, and you get fooled into thinking they know what they’re doing because they have nice stuff, but even morons can buy nice stuff.

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lsboogy
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by lsboogy » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:26 pm

I do blades for a guy I work with. He is a luthier (makes guitars as a side job) and uses Japanese kanna (block planes), a selection of chisels, and some other single bevel blade items. He used to use Arkansas stones, but has discovered Japanese planes and whetstone sharpening in the last few years. The video shows how to get a sharp edge quickly, which for many people is the goal. Dave has discovered the ability to take off a 0.001" shaving with what the forum members would call sharp - I do his blades to 8000 and then strop - they all shine like mirrors now.
What this whole thing exposes is just how dull most people let their tools and knives get. But because one person puts out a video does not a master make. And sharp is a relative thing - I was at my brothers last night and his Chromax is still sharp enough to cut tomatoes with, but I am picking it up next weekend to sharpen even though it is still the sharpest knife in his house by a long way.
I sharpened on of his neighbor's chisels on the sidewalk a few years ago and he thought it was great

jacko9
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by jacko9 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:47 pm

I don't think so - the end result didn't seem sharp to my eye and the test would be a hardwood shaving with little pressure. Oh well I only have 40 years doing chisel and hand plane sharpening so what do I know?

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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Carter » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:57 am

I sharpen my chisels (Japanese and Western) and plane irons the same as my kitchen knives, but with different angles of course. Years ago, I bought Shapton Glass stones for the shop due to their ease of use. I have 220-16000 grit stones and I use strops. I do like the Shapton's for the spray and go convenience, but I also found that the sharp corners of chisels and plane irons would occasionally gouge a softer water stone (operator error). For my kitchen knives, I use both Shapton and more traditional water stones. I will occasionally touch up a chisel on a buffer.

Kalaeb
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Kalaeb » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:35 pm

jacko9 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I don't think so - the end result didn't seem sharp to my eye and the test would be a hardwood shaving with little pressure. Oh well I only have 40 years doing chisel and hand plane sharpening so what do I know?
I, for one, would not mind a proper tutorial. I sharpen my chisels similar to a yangi.

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lsboogy
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by lsboogy » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Kalaeb wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:35 pm
jacko9 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:47 pm
I don't think so - the end result didn't seem sharp to my eye and the test would be a hardwood shaving with little pressure. Oh well I only have 40 years doing chisel and hand plane sharpening so what do I know?
I, for one, would not mind a proper tutorial. I sharpen my chisels similar to a yangi.
I do the same thing - they are near the same ideal in use. If my stones get a groove from the edge, I just take it out with a few strokes on flattening stones. If you chisel can't cut maple end grain easily it needs a trip to the stones. I just re-set a door and my chisels just went where they were supposed to. Old homes need understanding and care - I love using sharp tools as much as sharp knives

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ken123
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by ken123 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:32 pm

Kezuroukai competetion

Here they compete for thinnest continuous shavings measured in micrins. Mostly using Jaoanese natural stines.



Ken

Gregory27
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Gregory27 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:28 am

ken123 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:32 pm
Kezuroukai competetion

Here they compete for thinnest continuous shavings measured in micrins. Mostly using Jaoanese natural stines.



Ken
Image

Ut_ron
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Ut_ron » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:23 pm

I can’t do that nor do I want to. But the craft to be able to that, oh my.
Home cook that enjoys sharp knives.

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lsboogy
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by lsboogy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:27 pm

That's wood being shaved to 0.0004" - why they sharpen the things on whetstones

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ken123
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by ken123 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:15 pm

lsboogy wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:27 pm
That's wood being shaved to 0.0004" - why they sharpen the things on whetstones
Mostly Japanese natural stones. They usually prefer harder stones and covet them. Truly an art from sharpening them to precisely adjusting them.

Ken

Ourorboros
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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by Ourorboros » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:35 am

Seeing that video again got me to look around a bit.
Found a couple of American sharpening Japanese blade irons. They use more force than I would with a knife, but certainly not the kind of force in the video I linked to. The method was more recognizable.
The reason I found for developing this was because the Japanese did not have sandpaper. These planes - and the necessary skill of polishing and setting them up so precisely - it to give the smoothest finish possible. Please correct me if that is wrong.

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Re: Any woodworkers? Am I wrong to be appalled?

Post by RamenMonster69 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:33 pm

ken123 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:32 pm
Kezuroukai competetion

Here they compete for thinnest continuous shavings measured in micrins. Mostly using Jaoanese natural stines.



Ken
Helps when you use softer wood than Americans.

My dad bought a bunch of plane blades at Morihei last trip to Japan, he had to have a long discussion selecting them to get the right ones to work with North American hardwoods. The head of the shop recommended some synthetic stones they made (which I would normally be suspicious but when they're also selling $600+ naturals, it seemed like an honest move). Lie Nielsen has Japanese water stones they recommend using on their planes. I think the shaptons are actually the most popular for woodworkers, they stay flat and with a jig they can take a really smooth edge. But as the folks at Morihei pointed out they can scratch. With a production blade you care about it a little less then a hand made Japanese one. I have a few small Japanese planes, I've often just stropped them on my 8k king nagura and its worked amazingly well too.

Regards to the first video, I think we sometimes forget Japanese sharpening is still only a few decades old state side where it has any degree of popularity. I don't really see a huge amount wrong with it in theory, other than you may be removing some extra metal. My bet is those chisels are European steel. There are some really nice European made chisels, they're just softer steel. As previously mentioned that's not necessarily a bad thing on some woods worked on in the West that Japan doesn't use. Diamonds also have their appeal because they stay flat, which is an advantage. If you put in the elbow grease you get a good edge. You may just end up grinding through a more metal.

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