Still not happy with my Results

[ScottStoef]

Hi Guys!

I am needing some assistance with my EP results. I am sharpening a Tojiro DP 240mm Gyuto and 90mm Petty currently, but will be adding a Santoku AS to the mix shortly. Some of my more common stones were getting dished, so I purchased a flattening stone and trued them all up. I got a slightly better result, but still not nearly as good as it was OOTB. Here are my stones: EP 120, 220, 400, 600, and 1000, plus a Shapton Glass 6K or 8K (don't remember for sure). Considering buying a 1000 diamond stone to slow down the dishing. I spend 30-40 minutes/knife (maybe too long? ). Here is my process:

1. I use a Sharpie to set the edge every time I transition between stones (First mistake?). Seems to make sense as every stone is a different height and the EP cannot account for that.
2. I start with lowest grit given the condition of the blade. That is usually the 400 or 600.
3. I sharpen until I get a burr, but it is not always consistent across the blade. (Second mistake?).
4. I then flip the blade over and work the other side.
5. I keep flipping the blade back and forth using less pressure and strokes across the blade until I use 1 stoke.
6. At this time I switch to the next higher grit and continue this same process (Steps 1 thru 5).
7. Usually at the end of the 1000 grit, it cuts paper pretty good, at least for my skillset.

I then switch of the Shapton for my final polishing and this is where things always go horribly wrong. I always lose the edge during this step, but the cutting edge is nice and polished! I follow Steps (1 thru 5) again. At the end, the paper cutting test get worse from the EP 1000.

So what exactly am I doing wrong?

[Radar53]

Hi Scott, my apologies as I have a pretty full day today so I will reply in more depth later in the evening (NZ time).

Just quickly a few things.
a) if you're going to go down the Japanese knife rabbit hole, the steels are MUCH harder than for Euro knives and the standard EP stones aren't up to the task. So the first thing you need to consider is finances and how & when you might do this upgrade & what to upgrade to.
b) the grit sizing used for the EP stones is a totally different standard to the one used by makers of third party stones. eg your 1000 grit EP stone is about 3000 grit stone on the standard used by most third party stones. You ca find a comparison here <http://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=196>
c) your point 1) there is an easy fix for this ~ more later
d) your sharpening process seems to have good bones ~ again more later
e) don't know the answer to you final two comments as yet, but we'll no doubt get there ~ again more later

All for now

[d_rap]

Look forward to Grant's more in-depth comments. I've had more luck with the stock EP stones than he has, but YMMV, and generally I agree they aren't what you really need.

But to me, the most important issue is in your #3, the sometimes inconsistent burr. For a knife that's reasonably dull, I'd start with the 220 (same applies if the 400 seems adequate) and get a perfect burr, tip to heel on one side and then another. If that's taking more than 5 minutes on the 400 for example, go down to your 220. But don't go up until you've got a complete burr on both sides. Assuming you then de-burr, you should be able to cut paper easily after your first stone. Practice on lower stakes knives and don't go higher until you can achieve a decent edge tip to tail at your 220 or 400 or whatever your starter stone is.

[JoeWheels]

One of the greatest things about using an Edge Pro is the consistent, accurate, repeatable angle one can cut.
Irrespective of stones, be sure your angle is exactly where you want it throughout the whole process by using a good digital angle gauge, and the drill stop collar trick between stones too.

Hold the blade consistently and keep those stones flat!

[Radar53]

OK Scott, my apologies for the delay.

Firstly, both David and Joe have some very good thoughts in their posts. What’s got me a bit puzzled is that from what you say all is good up to the EP1k stone and then it turns to custard. So I want to run you through a sharpening sequence / process, step by step if that’s OK with you to try and work all this out.

In general I think that if you’re following Ben Dales video as linked that’s a really good starting point and I would recommend watching that a couple more times before you start this. I’m going to try and remove as many variables as possible in order to focus on the critical elements. So I would like you to sharpen your 90mm petty for this.

Firstly just some set-up things. Basically as per Ben’s video, but can you please make sure that you have the plastic clip attached to the moveable guide plate, we’re going to start with your EP220 so can you please flatten this stone just prior to starting. I’m not sure how you set up your grinding angle e.g. Angle Cube, cell phone app, angle guides on the EP pivot shaft?? Anyway we’re aiming for about 15dps (not critical) but a good angle for the Tojiro’s, so the red mark if your using the EP’s angle guides. Sharpie the edge, both sides, lay the blade flat on the blade table, adjust the guide plate so the the edge of the blade is 2 or 3 mm past the edge of and parallel to the blade table. Once there with a 90mm blade you should not have to move the blade at all (just to remove that variable).

Grind as per what Ben does on the video, pressure on the forward stroke and reduced pressure on the draw stroke. Use firm pressure, but not a lot of pressure, let the stones do the work. Given you’ve already sharpened this knife, try half a dozen strokes & check for any burr. Once you have a full length burr, it’s time to remove it & here I’m going to do this differently to Ben as below.

Flip the knife so the burr is facing up. To this point you have used pressure on the forward stroke (heel to tip) mainly to cut the edge. To remove the burr I use just single tip to heel strokes with pretty light pressure and lift the stone off the edge for the return. Eg just barely the weight of the stone arm & stone to start (2 - 4 strokes), and as the burr reduces, then basically support the stone arm so that there is almost no pressure on the edge. Check a few times during this to see what the burr is doing.

Once you’re happy then step & repeat for the other side. When you’ve got both sides done, I finish with a couple of single no-pressure burr removing strokes on each side. Your knife should now cut newsprint paper pretty easily and consistently. Stage 1 complete, don’t do anything else, come back & let us know how you got on and we’ll go from there.

[ScottStoef]

Sounds good Grant!

[ScottStoef]

Grant, I need to buy a few new stones anyway. Why are your thoughts about this one? Sounds like it would be a good option.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ck1kdiplfore.html

[Diemaker]

My short answer is it sounds like your not maintaining your angle, as in the knife is moving a bit while sharpening, it doesn't take much movement to cause inconsistencies. Your hand gently guides the knife, the stone holds it to the table. This is what I like about using magnets, they generally help hold the knife flat to the table helping eliminate the knife changing angles. Something you may wish to try is after I am done with the last stone I raise the angle .5 degree or so and make a few more strokes, don't overdo it. This ensures that the last stone reaches the apex and isn't just polishing the bevel.

The fact that your having a problem going from the 1k to the SG 6-8k is a bit strange. Does the SG improve the bevel polish? If not then it might need to be dressed. I know the 8k and finer are rather fussy about dressing, both needing from use and how they are dressed.

Another thought is can you measure the thickness of your stones at both ends? Just because they are flat doesn't mean they are even. If the thickness is off more than .01" you can see the difference in how it grinds the bevel.

[Radar53]

Grant, I need to buy a few new stones anyway. Why are your thoughts about this one? Sounds like it would be a good option.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ck1kdiplfore.html

Hi Scott. For my sins I prefer to limit my use of diamond stones (both for freehand and EdgePro). Hopefully d_rap will contribute here as he's much more into this area. The Atoma plates leave relatively deep scratches, so I limit these to mainly stone flattening duty. I do use 3M diamond products, I have a 120 grit plate which I use for the really heavyweight jobs and then use 3M diamond films is the mood takes me which I have from 120 to 150,000 grit. The 3M products also cut hard, but leave a much better finish imo.

The other aspect for me is that I consider once the heavy lifting is done and the bevel established, the rest is just refinement and good quality conventional stones do a really good job for me.

Sorry ~ probably not much use

[Radar53]

Something you may wish to try is after I am done with the last stone I raise the angle .5 degree or so and make a few more strokes, don't overdo it. This ensures that the last stone reaches the apex and isn't just polishing the bevel.

@Diemaker Certainly a good point. Compound bevels and micro-bevels definitely have a place. Like you, I also wonder about why Scott's issue comes at the end of the process, so I am trying to eliminate as many variables as I can at this stage to try and work out what is causing the issue.

Another thought is can you measure the thickness of your stones at both ends? Just because they are flat doesn't mean they are even. If the thickness is off more than .01" you can see the difference in how it grinds the bevel.

Another good point and it comes back to having a robust process that flattens stones consistently and accurately.

[Diemaker]

Compound bevels and micro-bevels definitely have a place.

I am referring to neither. I have noticed that coarse stones tear/crumble the apex off leaving a blunt intersection between the two bevels, at least with harder steels. With this in mind, I don't worry about refining the apex until my last stone, and raising the angle a tad to do so makes it a lot easier/faster. But, the bevel I end up with is pretty much full width since I barely change the angle. This saves a lot of time over polishing the bevels down until they meet using the same angle for all of your stones. Without a decent microscope I would have never figured this out, and Todd with Science of Sharp has shown this as well.

[d_rap]

Compound bevels and micro-bevels definitely have a place.

I am referring to neither. I have noticed that coarse stones tear/crumble the apex off leaving a blunt intersection between the two bevels, at least with harder steels. With this in mind, I don't worry about refining the apex until my last stone, and raising the angle a tad to do so makes it a lot easier/faster. But, the bevel I end up with is pretty much full width since I barely change the angle. This saves a lot of time over polishing the bevels down until they meet using the same angle for all of your stones. Without a decent microscope I would have never figured this out, and Todd with Science of Sharp has shown this as well.

Honestly this discussion is probably worth another thread.

I've probably spent too much time already at the science of sharp lol but if you could post that link that would be great Diemaker. And thank you for clarifying what you were saying above.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I read you to be saying at this point is that you don't worry about deburring or refining the apex as you move up grits and then you deburr/ refine on your final stone at an ever so slightly increased angle. There is good debate out there on these questions (burr removal or mitigation on every stone or not? Raise angle slightly or not?) and I know a number of different approaches work for different people. Sounds like you've got it dialed in for your needs.

[Radar53]

@Diemaker. The OP has an issue with his last stone mucking up the previous work completed. My aim here is to try and isolate just what that is. So I'm trying to set-up a simple, straightforward & known sharpening regime and trying to remove as many variables & side issues as possible to keep things really simple, in the hope that the problem makes itself known. We can certainly change it up again, once we have identified the issue.

You raise good points & issues, which warrant further discussion. Many (most?) of these have been debated here over the years, so have a hunt around on this (& also the earlier CKtG forum <http://www.chefknivestogoforum.com/>) and start some discussion threads, as you're sure to get plenty of interesting debate and discussion.

[ScottStoef]

Any recommendations for new sharpening stones? I was thinking about the Shapton glass stones since we already have the 6k, and it doesn’t seem to fish out like the EP stones.

[Radar53]

Hi Scott. It depends what you're looking for and how much you want to spend. It now looks like at CKtG you can only get Shapton either in the Glass or Pro flavours. There are also diamond plates available if that spins your wheels.

I have stones from 150 grit to 10k (Nubatama, Shapton Glass plus the EP1200 - approx grit 4500). Also 3M diamond films from 120 to 150,000 grit. Generally I like to aim for a 2X progression, others on the forum do different progression jumps, so it comes down to personal preference. I somehow don't think we'll see the Nubatamas again sadly ~ they are great stones. Also I like to let the low grit stones do the heavy lifting & this means that from about 1k upwards it's just refining an already established edge, rather then trying to hog off a lot of steel.

My stones are: Nub150, SG220, SG500, SG1k & Nub Plat 1k hard, SG2k, EP1200 (4.5k), Nub5k, SG8k & Nub10k. The only stone I'm so-so about is the SG220. When I first got it it didn't feel good and didn't seem cut well. After two really good sessions on an Atoma 140 it now cuts better, but it's still not my favourite stone. I don't have this, but the Shapton Pro 2k gets a lot of good reports on the forum.

If your knives are in reasonable shape then a three-stone starting set-up might be SG500, SP2k (or SG2k), SG4k. This would fit in with your SG6 or 8k.
Alternatively the high grit EdgePro stones work quite well (as they don't have to do the heavy lifting) and they do leave a good finish, so you could dovetail like this for only two new stones. SG500, SG1k (or SP1k), EP 1000 (3k), plus your SG6 or 8k.)

You can mix and match as much as you want. I like to mix things up a bit as it helps you work out what you like and what you don't.

HTH

[ScottStoef]

Grant,

I don’t mind investing into good stones. Having sharp knives is worth it IMHO. It will be easier to accept the price when I am happy with the output, which I am ready for step #2.

I did pickup a deburring cube and a 30x loupe to help me see the burr. I also thought about picking up a strop as well, but I am in no rush for that at this time

I still want to venture into the world of hand sharpening too.

[Radar53]

Hi Scott;

(i) was step #1 successful for you; burrs, removal, newsprint test, any issues / problems etc?
(ii) I'm not a fan of deburring by using a cube or cork or whatever, I like to grind them off and strop on newsprint for a final tidy-up
(iii) A Loupé is a fantastic tool & I use mine all the time. You can use it as a final check to be absolutely sure you have got right to the edge of the edge. Just so you know, it's a jewellers lens so you have to hold it right up to your eye (as they do) and look like a bit of a geek!!
(iv) Strops. I'm definitely out of step here & probably a bit of a Luddite with strops. I do most of my stropping on plain newsprint. For my very best knives, I will take them to rough & smooth bovine and rough & smooth kangaroo. I use all my strops "bare". Loaded strops definitely have their place, but I prefer to finesse my edges on the stones primarily.

Freehand sharpening ......... I think you've caught the sharpening virus and there doesn't seem to be any vaccine as yet. Lock up your wallet

[ScottStoef]

Hi Scott;
(i) was step #1 successful for you; burrs, removal, newsprint test, any issues / problems etc?

It seems like things went pretty smoothly. Seems like the more knives I do the better I am getting. So do you recommend adjusting the gauge each to me I put on a new stone or just set it for the first stone and leave it alone for the entire sharpening session?

[ScottStoef]

I will try the newspaper stropping next. I also have a ceramic sharpening steel but have never used it.

[Radar53]

So do you recommend adjusting the gauge each to me I put on a new stone or just set it for the first stone and leave it alone for the entire sharpening session?

Hi Scott. Yes is the short answer. If the stones are different thicknesses then there will be a change of angle if you just repeat the the same set-up.

There are a couple of tricks in dealing with this;
1) you can reset the EP Apex again from scratch with the new stone, using and Angle Cube or whatever.
2) a quick cheat is to use a thing called a "drill stop collar" <https://www.chefknivestogo.com/5drstcowhexk.html>. There are two videos at the bottom of the page & the one for the EP Apex is on the right. (The EP Pro works slightly differently, hence the video on the left). I found the CKtG DSC really awkward to use, so had a mate of mine turn me up something different. Apparently there is a "tool free" version of the DSC on Amazon as shown on this video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyM90lyJqr0> and that would probably be a better choice.
3) Either way this works pretty well for setting up the next stone and definitely gets you very close to maintaining the angle consistently throughout. BUT being an OCD engineer, once the first bevel is cut and I change to a different stone, I always double check, by putting Sharpie on the cutting edge of the knife, setting it up for your new stone and just run a couple of very light strokes down the blade to check & make sure that it is removing the Sharpie on the full width of the previous bevel. Do this for every stone in your progression.