This is about what makes carbon steel (and cast iron) able to be “seasoned”. I'm hoping there are a few metal guys lurking out there that might shed some light here.
Like many of you I have a few carbon steel pans (and a few cast iron). 2 from Matfer and a pair of the lighter pans CKTG carried months ago.
After researching a bit I found out that cast iron and carbon steel appear to be misnamed as cast iron has more carbon in it than carbon steel does.
My question(s) are:
Why are there no stainless hybrid modern looking versions of carbon steel?
I'm talking about an all-clad tri ply but with carbon steel interior so that it can be seasoned and made to be non stick. This would heat evenly, with better heat conductivity, look good on the outside and not be too heavy.
Stainless doesn’t seem to take oil or seasoning for some reason. Maybe it does but turns out too ugly?
Is this cause of the steel or surface finish or?
Staying with the all-clad idea why can’t a carbon steel finish be electroplated on, or sprayed on like they do powder coating?
Of course I already sent an email to all-clad but no response. Would I buy one of these? It would go right into the cart!
Metallurgist question re Carbon Steel
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Bensbites
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Re: Metallurgist question re Carbon Steel
I have thought about what it would take to make a clad pan that layers carbon steel to a conductive core. The short answer, it’s not easy.
You may get some galvanic reaction that don’t happen when chromium is present, but I have to dig into see if I can back that statement up with science.
You may get some galvanic reaction that don’t happen when chromium is present, but I have to dig into see if I can back that statement up with science.
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salemj
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Re: Metallurgist question re Carbon Steel
I'm not sure of the chemistry here. But polymerization can happen on stainless. I'm not sure that it happens in the same way, however, as polymerization is not only a change in the fat, but also an aspect of the bond to the metal.
When I've experienced polymerization on stainless (from a burn of oil), it has usually been with the wrong type of oil and something I try to remove quickly with a correct solvent (such as baking soda or barkeepers). It does not make the surface nonstick, but this is probably because it is ineffectively applied with the wrong type of oil. It also looks horrible.
I think what is easily forgotten is that seasoned cast iron is not a magical thing. From my very limited knowledge, the seasoning itself is extremely bad for you, and as it wears on and off, it isn't as if you're consuming oil; it is as if you are consuming polymerized oil (in the way that charred fat and protein on the grill is actually not so great for you, either). These compounds do not break down easily. In that sense, they are certified as cancer-causing precisely because they are not easily broken-down by the body (not unlike PAFS chemicals or whatever, which are, at the base, very similar: both surfaces are essentially strong bonds of organic compounds that seem inorganic because they are so hard to break down). In the case of a patina, you can often break it with acid, which seems minor. Apparently, scientists recently discovered that PAFS can also be easily broken down with hot water combined with some 1-2 common chemicals in the right proportion, but the process has yet to be refined (this is very recent). The key in either case is just finding the right chemical combination to release one bond (usually of a carbon-based polymer).
They key here is that a good non-stick surface is a polished surface (this is why glass, ceramic, and other such surfaces are naturally non-stick...including a good high-gloss paint). At the same time, a polished surface is BAD for polymerization. Carbon and cast-iron pans find a middle ground in terms of polish, I think, which allows them to take on a strong patina quickly while feeling "smooth" to the touch. In contrast, stainless and enamelled cast iron are both naturally non-stick when kept like new and polished, assuming you use some fat once the surface is heated. Likewise, even if you have bad sticking on these surfaces, there are easy ways to "release" the food because it only chemically bonds with the surface in the worst circumstances; usually the bond is easily weakened by water. Polymerization is "non-stick" only in the sense that it is a thin layer, almost like paint, that is mostly inert and water-repellent, so just a little bit of water or fat magnifies its non-stick qualities. But it is not actually non-stick like a good PAFS, which essentially acts as a hyper-polished veneer. This is one reason why - at least in my experience - cooking scrambled eggs in cast iron is not that different than cooking scrambled eggs in stainless if using a decent amount of butter and low heat: both end up sticking to some degree.
Nonetheless, I await eagerly for a metallurgist to tell me all the ways I'm misunderstanding this...
When I've experienced polymerization on stainless (from a burn of oil), it has usually been with the wrong type of oil and something I try to remove quickly with a correct solvent (such as baking soda or barkeepers). It does not make the surface nonstick, but this is probably because it is ineffectively applied with the wrong type of oil. It also looks horrible.
I think what is easily forgotten is that seasoned cast iron is not a magical thing. From my very limited knowledge, the seasoning itself is extremely bad for you, and as it wears on and off, it isn't as if you're consuming oil; it is as if you are consuming polymerized oil (in the way that charred fat and protein on the grill is actually not so great for you, either). These compounds do not break down easily. In that sense, they are certified as cancer-causing precisely because they are not easily broken-down by the body (not unlike PAFS chemicals or whatever, which are, at the base, very similar: both surfaces are essentially strong bonds of organic compounds that seem inorganic because they are so hard to break down). In the case of a patina, you can often break it with acid, which seems minor. Apparently, scientists recently discovered that PAFS can also be easily broken down with hot water combined with some 1-2 common chemicals in the right proportion, but the process has yet to be refined (this is very recent). The key in either case is just finding the right chemical combination to release one bond (usually of a carbon-based polymer).
They key here is that a good non-stick surface is a polished surface (this is why glass, ceramic, and other such surfaces are naturally non-stick...including a good high-gloss paint). At the same time, a polished surface is BAD for polymerization. Carbon and cast-iron pans find a middle ground in terms of polish, I think, which allows them to take on a strong patina quickly while feeling "smooth" to the touch. In contrast, stainless and enamelled cast iron are both naturally non-stick when kept like new and polished, assuming you use some fat once the surface is heated. Likewise, even if you have bad sticking on these surfaces, there are easy ways to "release" the food because it only chemically bonds with the surface in the worst circumstances; usually the bond is easily weakened by water. Polymerization is "non-stick" only in the sense that it is a thin layer, almost like paint, that is mostly inert and water-repellent, so just a little bit of water or fat magnifies its non-stick qualities. But it is not actually non-stick like a good PAFS, which essentially acts as a hyper-polished veneer. This is one reason why - at least in my experience - cooking scrambled eggs in cast iron is not that different than cooking scrambled eggs in stainless if using a decent amount of butter and low heat: both end up sticking to some degree.
Nonetheless, I await eagerly for a metallurgist to tell me all the ways I'm misunderstanding this...
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.