Honesuki

[KurtS]

Looking for a first time Honesuki for deboning chicken and other proteins. I would like something to take an edge and remain somewhat resistant to corrosion in case my wife uses my knife and doesn't wash and dry it. Torn about handles and keeping it bacteria free.

1)Pro or home cook?
Home (restaurant sous chef 30 years ago)

2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)
Honesuki

3) What size knife do you want?
150mm

4)How much do you want to spend?
Less than $150

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?
stainless over reactive carbon

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?
I own both. I am interested in a Japanese handle this time but I am processing chicken.

7)What are your main knife/knives now?
40 year old Henkel 10" chef's and slicers
30 year old Henkel 6" utility/slicer
7" Shun Classic Santuko
8" Shun Fusion Chef's
6" Shun Ken Onion Chef's
Wustoff Bread
Richon Paring
Henkel 4" paring

Looking for 210mm Gyuto next

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?
fair to good.

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?
Depends on knife and material. Rocker and chopper

10)Do you know how to sharpen?
yes but always room to learn more. Own Shapton Glass Stone set.

[cooknola]

Just grab a tojiro. Euro style Pakka handle. Cheap. Decent steel. It's next on my list. Has a decent feel to it. Managed to handle one at a shop here in town. Honestly undecided about its usefulness to me though with my flexible boning knife that I normally use. But for the price ya can't beat it.

[Ourorboros]

A good petty will do you just as well, unless you are doing high volume
See if somebody is selling one of the old Richmond honesukis. Heavier than the Tojiro, a reviewer who had both preferred it.

[Lepus]

I think the Kanehide Bessaku sujihiki and honesuki are fantastic. They're well made, the steel is nice, and the handles are relatively light.

[Rufus Leaking]

The Fujiwara FKM- don't give this a second thought- it's $65, and it'll be the best $65 one could spend on this site. No care, sealed handle, think about it- chicken is a veritable bacterial cesspool- porous wooden knife handles are unsuitable, and the knife is stainless. You don't really want to be wiping down a knife every time you make a cut. Everything you use to wipe chicken shit off of anything should be discarded. I would love to own the Yuki, and the only reason I didn't purchase that knife is the practical idea that hygiene and utility trump esoterica erry time.

[SteveG]

Hey Kurt, good recommendations from all.

As luck would have it, Mark sent 6 Honesuki knives in the latest video batch.

You mention the possibility of your wife not washing/drying the knife right away. I would stick w/stainless and probably Western handles for durability.

The Fujiwara FKM & Tojiro DP are best bets for very good, value options. +1 on Rufus Leaking's comments.

The Kannehide that Lepus mentioned are also excellent value options, but the handle is good and should be well sealed IMO if you're going to get it full of chicken goo. The steel on these is semi-stainless, but it's pretty easy to care for.

I going to try and shoot the Honesuki videos this weekend and also shoot a quickie comparo w/the 3 Western models in this batch.

[KurtS]

Thank you for your suggestions.

I am not doing high volume, but want a better boning knife for breaking down chicken. I don't really like my western style boning knives, so time to try something new. Western handle seems smarter to resist bacterial contamination issues. I was thinking carbon steel clad with stainless to minimize edge chipping and staining, but my wife will not clean and dry my knives immediately after use. I find myself washing knives after the fact and pulling out the stones more often than I wish.

Seems that the Tojiro and Fujiwara FKM may be the two best inexpensive solutions, since the Kannehide seems to have an absorptive wooden handle. I did not see a Richmond for sale. A Honesuki is probably not going to be the "go to" utility knife in our kitchen, and performance is more important than beauty in a specialty knife. I am leaning towards the Tojiro with the VG10 steel edge clad with stainless.

Thank you for the suggestion about a Petty. Two 150 Petty's, the Anryu Blue #2 Hammered Petty 150mm or the Kurosaki Megumi Petty 150mm caught my eye. Absolutely beautiful knives. My son will inherit some of my knives when he moves out, and I won't worry about what his roommates will do to them. That will be the time to pick up the new petty.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I want to try a true Gyoto vs. my European style chef's knives. A carbon steel clad with stainless will probably be the smart way forward knowing that someone else will eventually use "My" knife. Onward and Upward.

[KurtS]

Steve,

Just saw your post after putting up my thank you. Rufus's comment about chicken goo put me solidly into the western style handle. I have never really liked my boning knives, so a stiff Japanese style with good angles just makes sense. I am sure that both the Tojiro and Fujiwara would be good basic choices, and I won't worry about rust or staining. I wonder which is easier to sharpen, as I only own 1000 and 4000 Shapton Glass stones at this time. Will I want any other stones for either knife?

As you perform the evaluations, would you please consider the following. The video using the Shun Blue Honesuki to part out a chicken was impressive as compared to the video using the Tojiro DP. The Shun Blue's blade seemed to flow through the chicken, while the Tojiro seemed to tear at the chicken. I don't know if that was due to steel type, convex vs angular, single bevel, asymmetrical grind or sharpness. Just something that I noticed as the reviewer seemed to be surprised by the ease of use.

I'm not afraid of spending a little more money for a knife. Buy once, Cry once...

I look forward to your video's and anyone else's comments.

[-btm-]

This is a case where a more expensive knife isn't going to produce a huge bump in performance. Performance will be elevated by good sharpening and good technique. It takes a little time to adjust to the single bevel style boning knife. I posted a Japanese technique video a while back that is very helpful: [URLtarget]viewtopic.php?f=11&t=565[/URLtarget]
You won't go wrong with the FKM, Tojiro or Kanehide.
I have the Kanehide and I really love it. In a toss-up between the three I chose based on steel. The TK steel feels perfectly tailored to cutting meat...semi-stainless and basically worry free with great toughness (seriously never worry about chips) and really great edge retention in a mid-grit finish (+/-1k). It also comes back very easily with a few strops on leather or denim. I don't find the wood handle to be an issue. I basically treat it like a wood cutting board for meat only. The advantage of the rosewood handle is grip (when covered in goo). I think my second choice would be the FKM since I prefer the Fujiwara gyutos I've used over Tojiro dp.

[SteveG]

Great points -btm-.

I have the Kanehide Hankotsu and the steel is just a treat to sharpen. Between the FKM/DP, I think the FKM is a little easier to sharpen. Your Shapton 1K will work well on any of these knives. A Shapton Glass 320 or 500 would make a great addition to your lineup, just sayin' .

[Ourorboros]

The Shun Blues are beautiful knives that probably don't get the credit they deserve because they are made by Shun. I sharpened on once and it is relatively easy to get to the touch-it-and-you-bleed level.
That said, another blue or white can get to the same sharpness with about the same amount of effort. Ultimately any knife needs to be sharpened to perform.

[Cutuu]

I would definitely take the fujiwara or the kanehide over the tojiro. Eventhough u r not supposed to be hitting cx bones, i would still prefer the least chippy of the steels. The tk steel is really enjoyable to sharpen. I prefer both those lines over the tojiro dp series imo.

[KurtS]

Great points -btm-.

I have the Kanehide Hankotsu and the steel is just a treat to sharpen. Between the FKM/DP, I think the FKM is a little easier to sharpen. Your Shapton 1K will work well on any of these knives. A Shapton Glass 320 or 500 would make a great addition to your lineup, just sayin' .

The Shapton Glass 500 is out of stock and was out when I originally bought the SG stones a couple years back. I also have a CKTG diamond plate and a couple of cheap lower grit sharpening stones, but am looking to add the SG 500 and a strop kit when they come back into stock.

It sounds like the FKM is pulling ahead from the DP, with the Kanehide moving up on the outside at the turn.

Where do I find your new videos that you mentioned yesterday about the 6 Honesukis that you were evaluating?

[KurtS]

btm

Thank you for the video link. It's been a long time since I used any Japanese other than at a sushi restaurant. I recognized many words but can't remember what they meant. I loved how he (you?) cracked the leg bone to remove it. I had never seen that trick and always fought the leg bone when deboning.

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions. What makes the TK steel so special?

[-btm-]

Definitely not me in the video! I don't understand a word of Japanese but I like that particular video for the way he clearly and slowly demonstrates the technique then moves on to regular speed.

I think the Kanehide knives (rosewood handle line) are common butcher knives in Japan. Masahiro has a similar line if not the same knives under a different name. The steel is supposedly similar or the same as the steel that was used in the famous (out of production) Kikuichi TKC. It probably isn't far off from the Kono HD steel too... Semi-stainless is great since it sharpens easily like carbon but has the worry-free qualities of stainless. The TK steel used by Kanehide is impressive for how well it takes an edge in relation to how tough it is at a decent hardness (harder than the FKM but as forgiving). I have found it holds a mid-grit "meat cutting" edge amazingly well and keeps a lot of "bite" even as it starts to dull. It is epecially impressive and scalpel-like coming from a western boning knife. No need for constant honing. I've heard from pros who will go through 50 chickens no problem without needing a touch up. I use the knife worry-free and have yet to even see any edge deformation... going through plenty of joints, cutting out chicken backs, trimming pork ribs, frenching lamb chops, etc. I was sure I'd see some dings going edge against bone as I fumbled to make chicken galantine, but nothing.

The FKM would no doubt be a great knife too. Handle type and F&F are considerations you have to make for yourself. Steve G commented in his videos that the Kanehide handles were really nice and well finished. My particular knife had great wood but there were some gaps I had to seal up and it benefited from some sanding and oiling. Nothing major, but not ready to go out of the box. Most FKMs I've seen are pretty well finished. Both knives will probably need sharpening when you get them. The Kanehide felt sharp but actually had some burrs and a bit of a wire edge from being finish sharpened quickly. It actually took some work on a low grit stone to even out the bevel and get a clean apex but it was totally worth it. Since then it has been easy to maintain a hair-popping edge.

You really won't go wrong with whatever you choose. You can even flip a coin if you aren't sure

[Chefcallari]

Ive been using the Tojiro dp honesuki for over 2 years in a pro kitchen and its a monster. As far as it being chippy... Its not lol. On my opinion VG10 gets chippy when its ground too thin and has a lot of board contact. The Tojiro is nice and thick and it has a microbevel on the backside so the edge is super tough. I've never had it chip on me. It sharpens fairly easy. As far as edge retention... I'll knock down 5 cases of birds before i touch it up.... And thats only because i keep my knives real sharp i could go much longer. For $65 its a monster.

[KurtS]

Funny where I am with choices. I was originally thinking carbon steel (blue #2 or AS) clad with SS. Now I'm looking at Vg10 and Stainless. Waiting for Steve's new videos to place the order.

I know that it is outside the western handle, non-reactive blade direction but what about this one? Okeya Blue #2 Wa Honesuki 150mm

[KurtS]

So I have a little knife lust. I want to buy the right one, the first time.

Would I be off base to consider either the wa or western handled Kohetsu Aogami Super Honesuki 150mm as a step up from the Kanehide or FKM, or am I fooling myself into believing in Aogami Super steel and better F&F? I may have to keep it away from my wife but oh well...

[Chefcallari]

So I have a little knife lust. I want to buy the right one, the first time.

Would I be off base to consider either the wa or western handled Kohetsu Aogami Super Honesuki 150mm as a step up from the Kanehide or FKM, or am I fooling myself into believing in Aogami Super steel and better F&F? I may have to keep it away from my wife but oh well...

If your willing to spend the money on the Kohetsu its gonna be a huge step up in performance and f@f. There stainless clad so minimal maintenance. And the HAP 40 version is semi stainless so even easier.

[Lepus]

Aogami super is going to be more chip prone. That's a more comfortable trade off on a gyuto than can be used for specific tasks than on a boning knife. Of the Hitachi steels I would favor slightly softer blue #2 or the like for animal breakdown.

As for performance, the grinds on the Kanehide Bessakus are not thin, but that isn't as big a deal when breaking down chickens and sub primal as it is when cutting onions. I haven't had a lot of time with honesukis but I don't know what would give better performance than the Kanehide.