Teruyasu Fujiwara and Shigefusa

[shoshinsha]

By way of introduction, I recently bought a Goko White #1 240 Gyuto as my first Japanese knife after inquiring on this forum and getting a lot of helpful advice. The thread had a lot of good information, but unfortunately it was lost in the purge. And while I am very happy with the Goko, I've been bitten by the bug and I'm already thinking about my next knife and the knife after that and ... you get the idea.

In reading about different knives, it seems that no knife engenders as many divergent opinions as the Teruyasu Fujiwara Gyuto. Steve G and a certain other knife reviewer gave the TF Nashiji very high marks in their respective video reviews and Snipes, Jason, jbart65, and others called the TF a keeper in this thread. [urlhttp://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=40][/url]. And in the thread about discontinued lines viewtopic.php?f=3&t=144, a number of people, including sharksfan7, jacko9, Jeff B, and gladius expressed their appreciation for TF knives. On the other hand, Mark said about the discontinued TF line, "Yeah good riddance too. #1 returned knife I think I've ever sold. The King of Chips! " Interestingly, in reading many reviews of the TF on this site and others, most of the complaints had to do with a "terrible" F&F rather than chips. Although I could see where getting a HRC 64-65 could lead to chipping.

So what's the deal with the TF line of knives? Are they great knives with poor F&F and lend themselves to chipping? If they are great knives, what makes them so -- their grind, geometry, edge they take, or something else? I've heard them referred to as project knives -- does that mean after putting on a new handle, getting it professionally thinned and sanding down the spine and choil, you've got yourself one hell of a knife? Does the chipping issue that Mark talked about resolve itself after taking it to the stones? Are the F&F issues still there on the Maboroshi and Denka line of TF knives? Also, on a historical note, is it true that Kiyosho Kato and Teruyasu Fujiwara are related and were in business together, and they went their separate ways some years back (maybe because Kato-san was tired of Fujiwara-san neglecting the F&F on their knives)?

I know I've got a lot of questions here, but while we're on the subject of knives that are not discussed much here as CKTG no longer carries them, what is the general consensus on Shigefusa knives? Do they deserve their legendary status or are they overrated? I believe Mark used to carry them, but it seems they are now made in very limited quantity and almost impossible to get. Are they equal to Yoshiaki Fujiwara Kato for example?

Thanks for entertaining a curious grasshopper's questions.

[jacko9]

I have a TF 240 Nashiji Gyuto and a 150 TF Nashiji Petty both with ebony handles. The Gyuto did in fact chip at the edge after using it but after taking it to Ken Schwartz to have sharpened (about a year ago) it has never chipped again. I never had any chipping problems with my TF 150 Petty. The cutting edge is hardened to 66 RcH which is pretty darn hard and the thin edge probably was hardened to an even higher hardness due to quenching rates at the thin edge. Once that edge is sharpened that thin layer of harder steel is gone and the knife is darn great since then. This explanation is my "theory" based only on my work knowledge of edge effects on forgings - not this particular knife. As for your questions about Yoshiaki Fujiwara Kato or Shigefusa both of these makers are producing great knives but, they are produced in very limited quantities and are both very expensive and always in extremely short supply. I believe that Mark can point you to knives that are also great performers without breaking the bank. I'm not sure what your budget is but for a point of reference I just paid $558 for a Kato 210 Gyuto and I can tell you that it is not all that much compared to my Konosuke Fujiyama B#2 Gyuto or my TF W#1 Gyuto. Yes Kato and Shigefusa are very nice examples of fit and finish and steel treatment and grind BUT - will you ever notice? I used my Kato 210 Gyuto and my Konosuke Fujiyama 210 Gyuto tonight preparing dinner and I don't see much difference (except the cost).

[Jeff B]

When it comes to a knife being considered "overrated", that comes down to the the opinion of the user. One man's junk is another man's treasure.

As far as the TF and returns for chipping, the problem was two fold. First the knives needed to be sharpened before the first use but this was not well known by many until the problem presented to be very common. After a good sharpening the chipping was usually no longer a problem. The second part of the equation was in user error by many unfamiliar with J-knives at an extremely high hardness for the steel being used, to many people using the knife in the same manner they used their European knives.

The knives being produced right before Mark discontinued them had started to become more inconsistent from everything from the spine thickness, grinds to F&F. It wasn't always the case. Most of them were still good knives but you were never sure what you were going to get.

[Lepus]

I never fell for the TF knives like most of the people here despite trying three of them, including one that got rave reviews. I found them shoddily made with bad fit and finish, including protruding core steel at the heel and recessed core steel on the spine. I don't mind doing some work on a knife after the fact, but I expect those concessions to come with either cost savings or exceptional performance, which I didn't find those knives to deliver. TFs suffer from inconsistent performance from knife to knife, which was agnostic to the specific line including a very fat Maboroshi, and had trouble seeing the allure to them even when using the one that is much loved.

Teruyasu Fujiwaras do have their detractors, but most of us just don't care enough about the knives to talk about them. I suspect that with as inconsistent as the knives are there are plenty of TFs out there I would like, but I've soured on the brand.

[mauichef]

Shoshinsha.
Good first post. Interesting questions and answers.

[work3fish4]

I as well have a TF 240 Nashiji Gyuto and a 150 TF Nashiji Petty but with regular handles. I also have a TF santoku as my home knife, but I am not home much. I use and abuse the two knives every day. The petty is just my only petty, used for all small tasks. The 240 is a vegetable production MONSTER. Not my favorite for protein, but when I am prepping a recipe that calls for 40 lbs of diced peppers and onions the TF is in my hand. Mine is a little chunky at tip do to a drop so i do not use for fine work. I had one small chip in mine that sharpened out pretty quick. have not had issue since. I don't really sharpen past 2k, and strop on a 5k and can go weeks before a full progression with daily use. After a recent thinning session it has been a real joy to use. Kicking myself for not putting the time in sooner. There are a lot of knives out there, and a lot of people on here with a lot of knives that can give opinions. I will say, this 240 has been a soldier for me for over a year and getting better with time. There is a feel to the steel different from any other knives i have used. I get a similar feel using santoku at home. I think the hardness transmits more of a feel when cutting and sharpening although there are no issues getting it sharp.
One of the the great things about buying from Mark, and him having the classified section of forum is that if you don't connect with a knife you can usually not get hurt to bad if you decide to sell. But I am not a $500 knife guy either, not sure how that market translates.
I was unaware that they are no longer available, I would hate to have to replace mine.
George

[Bob Z]

I have a TF Maboroshi 180 Gyuto which was hand picked in a small shop in San Fran. The grind is nice along with fit and finish. There were no defects to be seen. It wasn't sealed where the tang enters the knife and the choil wasn't polished and rounded like my Kono HD2, but a bit of epoxy and some sanding did the trick. The hammered indentations kinda look like a kids first metal project in shop class, but the knife has undeniable uniqueness and character.
After a few months and only stropping one day a small piece of the edge just seemed to crumble away. I never do anything harmful to my J knives but there it was. I was kinda in shock about how this could happen. I sent it off to Ken Schwartz and he fixed it up and its been fine or better since then. Maybe hardness has its benefits and weakness. Maybe what they say about the initial edge is true.
Does it cut better or worse than the other gyuto's i have? Its not a laser but cuts just fine. Would i ever part with it? Prolly not. But this is my story.

[sharksfan7]

I wanted a TF for a while after reading many of the positive reviews on the old forum, but I wasn't able to get one before Mark stopped carrying them. I considered getting one directly from TF but I didn't want the cheap wa handle that was offered and I'd been hearing more and more comments regarding the inconsistencies, at least in the nashiji line. A few months ago I came across a 210 gyuto with an upgraded rosewood handle so I grabbed it. It's definitely rough with the f&f but what I got wasn't as bad as some of the complaints I had heard. It's all about the core steel with these and the edge it can take. The OOTB edge was crazy sharp. Sharper than any other knife I've used. The way it fell through tomato and onions just made me giggle. I'm hoping my sharpening skills are good enough to really make it sing. The grind, however, is thicker than I expected. It gets really thick at the top of the blade road. When I first got it, it wedged pretty severely in certain things I was cutting, like large carrots & heads of cabbage. That was pretty disappointing, but I think I was being a bit too delicate with it at the time. I kinda expected it to fall through everything with little effort like it did through tomato. A couple of weeks ago I used it to chop up several pounds of veggies. I handled it with more confidence, put a little more "umph" behind it and it blasted through everything. I'll still thin it a bit when I take it to the stones for the first time, but I want to see how long this edge will last. As for chips, yeah I've found a couple. But they're so small I can only feel them when I run my thumbnail along the edge. I'm not going to worry about those. They'll be taken care of easy enough.

Is it a "great" knife? I don't know. Maybe not as great as I originally made it out to be in my mind. I am happy that I got it though, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. I do look at it more as my workhorse knife instead of my "show off" knife. My Devin Thomas still holds the throne in that regards. I do wish it was a 240, though. Down the road I'll probably get a 240 and sell my 210. But like another user once said, it's like playing the lottery. Throw down the cash and hope to get a winner.

[jason]

Teruyasu Fujiwara knives are interesting knives. They have lots of character. Yes it can be hit or miss on whether you get a good 'un or bad 'un. If you want something leaning towards perfection then this is definitely not the knives for you. Between the Nashiji and Maboroshi series, I prefer the latter. My summary of the Maboroshi IMHO

pros
* love the high heat treatment and white #1 steel combination
* the grind is nicely balanced so it can go through root vegetables and deal with proteins
* nice gradual tapper
* sharpening is such a pleasure as it sharpens up so easily and in the event of a chip they're so easy to fix
* it's shape to it rather than just a skinny blade
* has a lot of character

cons
* can be chippy if your technique and/or care isn't fully there - no one for someone who's not skilled with knives
* fit and finish can be an issue and can be the luck of the draw

I originally got a Maboroshi with western handle which I still have but I must prefer the wa handles. I contacted him directly and had a great experience in putting in an order directly with him. I got two 240mm, one to keep and one to leave in my collection. The one in my collection is going up for sale because I've replaced it with a 210mm version - prefer 210s generally.

https://www.dropbox.com/home/public/pho ... to%20240mm

(I'm in the UK but get in touch if you're interested)

[salemj]

I have had a lot of doubts about this maker, but I own a gyuto now. It does take a wonderful edge, but is also very idiosyncratic.

I haven't written a detailed review of my knife yet, in part because it is such a conflicting tale. The knife was clearly given extra-special attention and is a magnificent representation of what this maker can do. T-F did several "extra" things in fulfilling my order. And yet, the resulting knife still had some surprises. It was not unlike working with someone who has a bit of an attention problem: some aspects of the knife received obsessive, even over-worked, attention, while others seemed to go neglected or were not quite noticed. In my case, I sent some general preferences and it was clear that extra-special care went into meeting some of those preferences, but the knife was still not within my imagined specifications (despite seeing many such knives in stores that WERE to my specifications, so I know it wasn't an usual request). Furthermore, while extra attention was put into the blade road, this resulted in some over-grinding of the profile—minor, but still surprising given that this was the direct result of something I know T-F was paying extra attention to during the finishing process. The handle was totally mis-ground, but I was expect this as it is a common feature of his knives and I am not at all disturbed by it.

I was very pleased with my purchase given how personable T-F was and how unique the performance and feel of the resulting knife is. But that is mostly because I went into the whole project with very low F&F expectations. While I do treasure the knife and think it takes a wonderful edge, it chipped worse than any other knife I've used the first time I tried to cut some bread with it (as a test)—but that was before a first sharpening. It was also very minor microchipping, to be sure. I'm also less impressed with aspects of the edge having seen a number of them now, as I am fairly confident that I get the recipe for the edge performance and retention, and I think it has less to do with a special treatment and more to do with a special grind. It seems that many of his best edges are actually surprisingly thick right behind the edge (compared to, say, a Kono or a Masakage), and I believe this extra structural support really helps to buttress the edge and to create a stronger "V" shape that wears more slowly, especially given the harder steel. But it also means that, if you like thinner knives or knives that really glide through food, this knife has some compromise. I suspect most owners would disagree, but then again, many owners also comment on the heft of the knife and how the weight of the blade does most of the work...in such a case, it is genuinely hard to notice the thicker edge because of the inertia in the cut. It is a good design, but I think it – like other features of the knife – appeals most strongly to people with a certain technique and people whole like a knife that they can really feel in the hand and in the cut.

[jbart65]

TFs are like a box of chocolates - you never know what you will get. You can tell from the experiences listed here.

My situation:

I've got a custom handled 240. My go-to for big prep sessions. Great chopper but rocks surprisingly well. Thickish spine tapers to a fairly fine edge for detailed work. Hard as hell steel that gets as sharp as anything I own. Enough muscle to handle harder ingredients, though.

I've owned two TFs and used a half dozen more. F&F is always an adventure. Handles are just okay and the blade can have imperfections.

No problem with chipping. My knife came with an overgrind at the heel, but it hasn't been a problem.

Worth buying? Sure, if you've handled the one you plan to buy. Or if you aren't on a tight budget. But I'd recommend a new handle - I ordered mine without one. And be prepared to sell one if it doesn't meet your requirements.

[TommyB]

With regard to Shigefusa, I was fortunate enough to pick up a 215mm kasumi gyuto a few months back and must confess it is one of my favorites - up there with my Katos, Kono Fujis and Carters. Takes and holds and excellent edge, superior fit/finish and has that indefinable something that makes it an extension of my hand/arm. The Kasumi finish is also something unique and more pleasing than that from most other makers.
Tom

[J david]

Come on, just look at it. You know you want one.

[jason]

With regard to Shigefusa, I was fortunate enough to pick up a 215mm kasumi gyuto a few months back and must confess it is one of my favorites - up there with my Katos, Kono Fujis and Carters. Takes and holds and excellent edge, superior fit/finish and has that indefinable something that makes it an extension of my hand/arm. The Kasumi finish is also something unique and more pleasing than that from most other makers.
Tom

The problem iwith shigefusa is that's is hard to get hold of. I went for a watanabe instead and found it a very nice knife with less issues of supply. Sin made it an transaction

[Badgertooth]

These are crazy idiosyncratic knives. And despite the mega crapshoot, they have a certain innate soul to them.

Mine has the classic moritaka-style overgrind hole that will probably shorten its usable life but I kinda don't care. It sharpens up something fierce and is a good performer. Shigefusa isn't even playing the same sport as TF. Small batch production with no blade ever touching a grinder.

Here is the TF overgrind hole



Now compare to the utter perfection of the Shig finish (aided an abetted by a little hand polish from myself)





Kato doesn't have the same F&F as Shigefusa and he the occasional quirk but the full weight of his swordsmithing knowledge is thrown at making knives that have some of the best heat treat and grinds in the business. It's the soul of a sword in the body of a knife

[jason]

I link I posted didn't work. Try these

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/690 ... 125835.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/690 ... 12_001.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/690 ... 125955.jpg

[snipes]

Well since we are showing pretty pictures...my semi-custom Maboroshi 210. Love this curvy lady.

[desol]

I remember the first time I went into a store and tried a bunch of Japanese knives(told this story a few times now)...prob close to ten years ago. I tried TF regular, TF with the notch in the chin, I tried Moritaka and a few others on roma tomatoes in the store. Prob spent a good hour there, with other folks trying knives. Overall I left liking Takeda the best. TF with the notch was like $650. These were all Nakiris.

Shigefusa finish(above) kinda reminds me of Wakui hairline in pictures.

[snipes]

I remember the first time I went into a store and tried a bunch of Japanese knives(told this story a few times now)...prob close to ten years ago. I tried TF regular, TF with the notch in the chin, I tried Moritaka and a few others on roma tomatoes in the store. Prob spent a good hour there, with other folks trying knives. Overall I left liking Takeda the best. TF with the notch was like $650. These were all Nakiris.

Shigefusa finish(above) kinda reminds me of Wakui hairline in pictures.

You're right, and I'd say more than just the finish. That profile reminds me quite a bit of the Wakui.

[desol]

Yep. Of course in hand, could be totally different.

Probably should have said Wakui reminds me a little of Shigefusa.