Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

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Sherlock808
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Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by Sherlock808 » Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm

I've been looking closely at the following really. Any other suggestions are welcome too cheers!

-MASAKAGE KOISHI AS GYUTO 240MM
- TAKEDA CLASSIC AS 240MM
-YU KUROSAKI AS 240MM




1)Pro or home cook?
Pro

2)What kind of knife do you want?
Gyuto

3) What size knife do you want?
240mm

4)How much do you want to spend?
Up to 350

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?
Open to all

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?
Octo

7)What are your main knife/knives now?
270 kikuichi elite carbon
7" Damascus kikuichi santoku


8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?
Proficient

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?
Rocker and a chopper

10)Do you know how to sharpen?
Yes

Lepus
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by Lepus » Thu May 17, 2018 1:35 am

Sherlock808 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?
Proficient
That is an excellent answer that says a lot about you.

What is the Kikuichi not doing? The three knives you are considering are suitable pro knives, but there might be better options depending on your uses and habits. Of the three the Kurosaki is a safe, default choice. He also makes an R2 line that would probably be even better.

My favorite professional knife is the Shibata Kashima in R2. The additional length can be nice, the profile is neutral and lends itself to a lot of stuff, and the steel holds an edge practically forever.

Igalor
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by Igalor » Thu May 17, 2018 2:52 am

I use a kurosaki r2 240 and a takeda sasanoha 210, as well as having had a koishi. The kurosaki is my most used knife, it's very versatile, easy to sharpen, holds an edge forever, and it has a balance between cutting performance and toughness that allows me to take it from prep duty to the line with ease and confidence, that doesn't mean it's the best cutter, or the best knife, just the one that suits my needs the best at the moment. The takeda is wonderful as well, great edge retention and food release that is like nothing I've had before,but is not as well suited for all around duty as the kurosaki. I sold the koishi because it felt redundant with the kuro around, but I believe I could have been happy with it too.
Other standout offerings for a pro environment from my experience are tanakas, specially his r2 line and the blue stainless clad, and yoshikanes skd line. The yoshikane has a very long flat spot, excellrnt steel and killer distal taper. the tanakas are very well rounded middle weights with amazing grinds (full convex on the r2, wide bevel on the nashiji) that can do anything with ease, and my personal favorites amongst the afore mentioned.

cedarhouse
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by cedarhouse » Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 am

I agree with Igalor, the Kurosaki and Koishi would be my pick and you could more or less flip a coin. They are similar in design and execution.

The Takeda is notable for a very unique grind and the best heat treatment I've seen on AS steel so it is well worth owning if you delight in well made knives. However, the grind makes the knife excel at some tasks and struggle at others. Many find the profile of the Takeda polarizing. The best description I've heard for the knife is it is an oversized santoku. Lastly, the grind makes sharpening a bit different from more typical double beveled knives. Again, the Takeda is an exceptional knife, but it is a less ideal all-rounder than the other two.

CacahuateSommelier
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by CacahuateSommelier » Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 am

cedarhouse wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 am
I agree with Igalor, the Kurosaki and Koishi would be my pick and you could more or less flip a coin. They are similar in design and execution.

The Takeda is notable for a very unique grind and the best heat treatment I've seen on AS steel so it is well worth owning if you delight in well made knives. However, the grind makes the knife excel at some tasks and struggle at others. Many find the profile of the Takeda polarizing. The best description I've heard for the knife is it is an oversized santoku. Lastly, the grind makes sharpening a bit different from more typical double beveled knives. Again, the Takeda is an exceptional knife, but it is a less ideal all-rounder than the other two.
Forgive my stupidity As I’m still a bit green..... What makes takeda so different to sharpen? I’ll admit, I have not given them significant examination as I have not considered purchasing one of them.... is it because of the s-grind/compound grind? I just assume sharpening is just buisness as usual, but with a wide bevel.... what needs to be done differently technique wise?

salemj
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by salemj » Thu May 17, 2018 10:35 am

CacahuateSommelier wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 am
cedarhouse wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 am
I agree with Igalor, the Kurosaki and Koishi would be my pick and you could more or less flip a coin. They are similar in design and execution.

The Takeda is notable for a very unique grind and the best heat treatment I've seen on AS steel so it is well worth owning if you delight in well made knives. However, the grind makes the knife excel at some tasks and struggle at others. Many find the profile of the Takeda polarizing. The best description I've heard for the knife is it is an oversized santoku. Lastly, the grind makes sharpening a bit different from more typical double beveled knives. Again, the Takeda is an exceptional knife, but it is a less ideal all-rounder than the other two.
Forgive my stupidity As I’m still a bit green..... What makes takeda so different to sharpen? I’ll admit, I have not given them significant examination as I have not considered purchasing one of them.... is it because of the s-grind/compound grind? I just assume sharpening is just buisness as usual, but with a wide bevel.... what needs to be done differently technique wise?
It is not a very wide bevel, and it is a very thin blade! It can be tricky to stick and hold the bevel because it is often under 1cm in height and is a "zero grind," but it is also on a very, very thin knife. Finding, sticking, and holding the bevel requires a good, flat stone, the right pressure, and a consistent stroke. Think of it like sawing a rod versus sawing a 2x4: the rod is round and thin and you have to focus way more on cutting straight, whereas with a 2x4, it is very easy to set a groove with just a stroke or two and follow it—this is like the difference between a Takeda and a "normal" wider-bevel knife. It is also a very hard AS treatment, so it can be a little tricky to maintain that finesse over a higher number of strokes.

That said, it is not "difficult" in any mystical way. Once you get the hang of it, it becomes much more about what stone to use than how to deal with the bevel. Also: these knives are never "thinned" beyond the bevel unless someone wants to dramatically alter the original geometry. Most are so thin that no thinning can be done; the most you would do is "thin" the knife by essentially adjusting the primary bevel angle just a hair to raise it 1mm or less, but if you stick the original bevels properly, even this should happen automatically with regular sharpening...and these things hold an edge SO LONG that regular sharpening is quite infrequent...!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

Radar53
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by Radar53 » Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 pm

Takeda also has his own unique method of sharpening, which you can see here;
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB2A8z-WHQw >

I think that the two grits are 400 & 1200 and there's another of his videos somewhere showing that he also finishes with a JNat. It looks interesting and I will give it a shot when my 210 Classic needs some attention.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

cedarhouse
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by cedarhouse » Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 pm

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QebqMmhRJU

The technique is not hard but it is different from most double bevel knives. The critical difference is you want to sharpen the entire bevel so you need to use finger pressure to assure good stone contact. The challenge in doing this is the bevel is very small, as Joe mentioned, so there is not a lot of real estate to work with.

snipes
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by snipes » Sat May 19, 2018 7:28 am

Radar53 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 pm
Takeda also has his own unique method of sharpening, which you can see here;
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB2A8z-WHQw >

I think that the two grits are 400 & 1200 and there's another of his videos somewhere showing that he also finishes with a JNat. It looks interesting and I will give it a shot when my 210 Classic needs some attention.
I watched Mr. Takeda sharpen a forum member's knife at Blade Show a couple years ago. Just like the video he made it look so easy. I almost bought one of his knives on the spot.

slickmamba
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:28 pm

Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by slickmamba » Sat May 19, 2018 10:25 pm

Wow that is a very unique method. looks to have a great outcome as well, wonder if anyone has tested this vs other methods

cedarhouse
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by cedarhouse » Sun May 20, 2018 9:03 pm

I use a similar technique, the stone-in-hand technique, for a lot of my garden tools where bringing the blade to the stone might be more challenging. It is a common technique used for axes too.

In my limited experience, I have found Scandinavian ground knives, the Moras in particular, are easier to sharpen with the stone-in-hand method.

My instinct, though, is that this technique has very specific application where it excels: larger blades where bringing the tool to the stone would be constraining; or blades with small, flat, primary bevels like the Tanaka or the Mora. In this latter case, the bevels are not large enough to comfortably use finger pressure to positively establish solid contact but they are large enough to penalize too much wobble introducing a pronounced convexity to the bevel.

....just my $0.02

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jbart65
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by jbart65 » Mon May 21, 2018 7:12 am

Another option: Kanehiro AS. Tough like a Kurosaki, but a bit better at rocking. This is one of the three best knives I've encountered that would be on my list if I were a pro. I'd probably go with R2 steel for longevity, but AS holds a good edge too.
Jeffry B

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Jeff B
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by Jeff B » Mon May 21, 2018 1:03 pm

The Kanehiro and the Kurosaki are proven tough guys in the pro environment. The Koishi has a higher grind and is a good performer but may be a little delicate when your in the trenches and things get rough.
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.

CacahuateSommelier
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Re: Looking to buy a 240 GYUTO here what I'm looking at

Post by CacahuateSommelier » Mon May 21, 2018 1:15 pm

cedarhouse wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 pm
Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QebqMmhRJU

The technique is not hard but it is different from most double bevel knives. The critical difference is you want to sharpen the entire bevel so you need to use finger pressure to assure good stone contact. The challenge in doing this is the bevel is very small, as Joe mentioned, so there is not a lot of real estate to work with.
Great info Joe & @cedarhouse!!! That’s for the lesson... it all makes sense

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