210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

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marlinspike
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210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:03 pm

I didn't do the full questionnaire because this isn't the usual recommendation request. Just curious if anybody has thoughts on how these two compare, particularly for detail work, not as a main chef's knife.

Hinoura Tsuchime https://www.chefknivestogo.com/hitaw2tsgy21.html

vs

Yahiko Ice https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yaicesh2gy21.html

The former I like because I love my Hinoura Tamashii nakiri and it fits a lot of what I need. The latter I like because of the two recommendations Mark gave me, it is the more forward-weighted one.

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jbart65
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by jbart65 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:45 pm

I haven't used a Hinouri yet, but I did briefly own a Yahiko Ice 240 and I now own a Yahiko Ice bunka. (I sold the 240 to pick up the bunka.)

Personally, I think the Ice line of knives is one of the best I've tried among the many Japanese knives I have used or owned. The finish is tremendous, of course, but it wouldn't matter without performance. The Ice has performance in spades.

I basically describe the Ice as a semi-laser. It cuts similarly and almost as well as a Kono HD or a Shibata, but it's got a little more weight and thus power. It's by no means a middle-weight, though. Definitely on the lighter and nimbler side.

The Ice, like most Japanese knives sold on CKTG, has a good all-round profile. It' can do rocking decently enough and chops low and soft ingredients well, but it's best as a pusher. It's also a very precise knife with a thin tip that can handle virtually any delicate task with aplomb.

The steel takes an incredibly keen edge and sharpens up quickly. Being W#2 it will get some tiny microchips now and then, but it's nothing out of the ordinary for that particular steel.

I wouldn't recommend this knife for a pro unless one don't mind the finish getting messed up. It's ideal with home cooks who want a lighter knife, but one that's not necessarily a laser.
Jeffry B

DanielB
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by DanielB » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:51 pm

I too have the Yahiko Ice bunka and love it. It's become my pretty much go-to knife for most things in a home kitchen. It definitely excels as a push cutter, as Jeffrey says.

Another knife you might consider is the Makoto white #2 gyuto. Very similar specs, same steel, excellent fit and finish, and $90 cheaper. Just came back in stock too. I haven't used it, but everyone raves about it. Very likely one of the best deals on the site.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:14 pm

Is the Yahiko a machine made blade? I ask because the finish makes me think yes. Will it be as nicely made as the Hinoura even though it is not a knife the maker sells under his own name? I wouldn't think to ask it, except my Hinoura Tamashii Nakiri is such a joy to use, in a way that is better than anything I've used, and I couldn't explain why exactly, which I assume comes from the expertise of the maker.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:42 pm

marlinspike wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:14 pm
Is the Yahiko a machine made blade? I ask because the finish makes me think yes. Will it be as nicely made as the Hinoura even though it is not a knife the maker sells under his own name? I wouldn't think to ask it, except my Hinoura Tamashii Nakiri is such a joy to use, in a way that is better than anything I've used, and I couldn't explain why exactly, which I assume comes from the expertise of the maker.
Did my research, and figured out the rest. So any worry about the quality of the Yahiko is definitely unfounded. That said, reading the various tests jbart did of the Yahiko, I think the finish might be a bit stickier than I'm looking for. I briefly was distracted by Konosukes, but then noticed the size and how little of it is flat, which has me thinking I'll go Hinoura, but the downside there is the blade is just a bit too short (in height, not length) for me. Maybe Mark can pull an especially tall one for me? If only money were unlimited, I could try them all....

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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by ChefKnivesToGo » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:02 pm

I think we only have 2 left and they’re a year out if I decide to do them again.
Mark Richmond
Co-Owner Chefknivestogo
https://www.chefknivestogo.com

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:06 pm

I was all set on the Hinoura, just waiting for some bank issue to clear up (hotel kept the original hold on my account for 10 days, despite the actual charge at the end also hitting me, wtf Hilton), but now that I'm about to buy I'm thinking, will the grind on the Hinoura cause wedging, given that it is almost like it is sabre ground?
https://images.yswcdn.com/-670987815153 ... 0mm-24.png

I keep clicking back and forth between the Yahiko Ice, the Hinoura, and the Konosuke Sanjo (which I realized I'd have to wait a while for)


Taking another look, is what the Hinoura has going on actually an S-grind?

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:53 pm

Finally bit the bullet and went with the Hinoura. Will report back once it arrives.

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jbart65
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by jbart65 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:07 pm

The Yahiko Ice finish doesn't cause a lot of stickage, but it's noticeable when the knife is new. Wedging is virtually nonexistent, though. Hinoura is one of the few lines on CKTG I haven't tried. In time ...
Jeffry B

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:51 pm

jbart65 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:07 pm
The Yahiko Ice finish doesn't cause a lot of stickage, but it's noticeable when the knife is new. Wedging is virtually nonexistent, though. Hinoura is one of the few lines on CKTG I haven't tried. In time ...
Well...what state are you in?

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jbart65
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by jbart65 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:46 am

DC. I've been planning to get a Hinoura as my next knife and almost snagged a bunka before the Ice hit the site a few months ago. Summer's been busy so I figured I'd wait.

Hard to believe I've almost run of knives to try! (-:
Jeffry B

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:55 am

jbart65 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:46 am
DC. I've been planning to get a Hinoura as my next knife and almost snagged a bunka before the Ice hit the site a few months ago. Summer's been busy so I figured I'd wait.

Hard to believe I've almost run of knives to try! (-:
Ah, so close. I'm from DC but don't go back much. If you visit Williamsburg you could try mine out.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:49 pm

So, if anybody is curious about my Hinoura Tscuchime 210mm gyuto:

Mine weighs in at 5.21 oz and has a blade length of 203mm. It widens at the very rear of the spine, but measuring the spine thickness above the rearmost part of the blade I get 3.0mm, but just a quarter of the way down it is down to 2.4mm. At hte halfway mark it is 2.15mm. Once you get down to the end of where the KU finish still is it is 1.9mm and the tip basically disappears, something like 0.45mm. I did request that Mark check for a particularly thin one though, so I don't know how representative this is. The balance point is where the first full column of hammering is.

I have only used it a little so far. I must admit, I had hope the weight would feel a little more forward. On mine, the blade has basically 0 machi, so I'm thinking if I don't get used to it, I could have it rehandled with the blade installed a bit out from the handle.

One thing I am unsure of - it seems like it might be a convex edge? Really it seems like it might be convex form below the KU finish part until you get to the very cutting edge and then the cutting edge is normal. Should I be sharpening this like a convex edge knife or on stones like I do everything else? I touched it up on an 8000 grit stone and because of the very shallow edge angle managed to rub a bit of the gray finish (what is the name of that part, the gray part beneath the KU finish but above the cutting edge).

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:09 pm

I learned two things today: the gray finish is called kasumi and it is done to the knife through the use of finger stones. Here I thought I knew about sharpening. What is the proper way to do this, dull the whole edge with a finger stone and then sharpen it on my shapton stones at an angle that leave some of the kasumi? Or should I be hitting the kasumi part on a stone that leaves such a finish and use it like I would make a back bevel?

jmcnelly85
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by jmcnelly85 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:00 pm

Kasumi finishes can be done with different stone progressions, sandpaper, finger stones, or power equipment and is often the result of thinning or grinding above the edge. Some stones are better than others at this, I remember the king 800 being great at it, the green brick is capable of it, the kohetsu 2k is really good at it, but there are natural stones that were born to do it. Shaptons are much better at polishing than kasumi. Talk to Ken about it, I guarantee he’ll be able to give better advice on the how and what to use.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:56 pm

I did some research and I've figured out how to apply a kasumi finish, but when I sharpen should I sharpen the entire blade area below the KU finish and then reapply the kasumi for appearance, or do I do my cutting edge at a slightly steeper angle than where the kasumi is and only sharpen in a way that removes the kasumi when I need to thin?

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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by jmcnelly85 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:26 pm

If I’m understanding correctly, I think what you are asking is to sharpen at an angle that doesn’t affect the finish unless you are thinning. This is correct unless you are going for a zero grind when you are sharpening. It might be easier to start a separate thread in the sharpening sub forum, some pro’s and experts will be more likely to chime in on kasumi and sharpening related questions.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:31 pm

That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks.

marlinspike
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Re: 210 gyuto, Yahiko Ice vs Hinoura Tsuchime?

Post by marlinspike » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:51 pm

If anybody comes into this thread in the future considering the Hinoura - I would say it is worth paying for the sharpening service. Even after touching it up on an 8000 grit, I was a bit luke warm on the knife. It would shave, it just wouldn't shave for long and even when shaving sharp it just didn't feel that sharp in the food. I decided to just start it over last night as if it were a totally dull knife and wow, I did not expect it to have this much potential. It is a great knife, but definitely need you to put your own edge on it.

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