Looking for Sujihiki

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zizirex
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Looking for Sujihiki

Post by zizirex » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:08 am

Hi, I'm looking for Sujihiki,

1)Pro or home cook?

Home

2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)

Sujihiki

3) What size knife do you want?

270

4)How much do you want to spend?

$250 max

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?

Does not matter.

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?

Western or Octagonal Handle

7)What are your main knife/knives now?

Ohishi 240mm Gyuto, 150mm Petty Takamura vg10, Tojiro R2 Santoku, 8 Wusthof Classic, and Tojiro DP Honesuki

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?

between good and Excellent

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?

Depend on the knife, mostly Push/pull cutter with gyuto and rocker on German.

10)Do you know how to sharpen?

Yes, and I have a wide variety of stones.

I'm considering the PS60, Kohetsu AS, Sakai Takayuki Aonikou, Wakui W2 and Akazawa G3, but It will be used for cutting meat raw or cooked, preferably Laser, but since I will slice a raw meat very thinly(like Bulgogi or Sukiyaki thin) that will need to be partially frozen, will it be better to use normal grind rather than laser? I'm open to any other brand as long it is still within budget.

Thank you.

salemj
Posts: 2683
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by salemj » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:38 pm

Welcome to the forum!

Your last comment is particularly interesting. I haven't studied this at all, but I do feel like in my experience with my own knives, the real issue with "partially frozen" isn't so much the grind (laser or not) or the thinness at the edge as it is "retention."

What I mean is, when I deal with meat from the freezer that is sometimes "surprise!" not thawed all the way through, it is never the case that I'm trying to hack through it in such a way as to put hard, lateral pressure on the edge. And I simply don't cut such things that have bones in them, because I don't really freeze meat with bones (I'll debone first if necessary). It sounds like you're in the same situation. So, in that situation, I don't think you need to worry about toughness of the edge in terms of "laser" or "fragility," but I DO think you need to worry about it in terms of "tooth."

I have found in these (and other) situations that the right amount of tooth is essential for dealing with a variety of proteins at a variety of temperatures/textures, including "thawed" textures. And when food is partially frozen, I also find that it does the most "damage" or causes the most frustration at the level of tooth: not enough tooth and the blade definitely prefers to glide or slide rather than bite and cut in the right direction.

All of this tells me that you might do well with a rather thin blade that has a lower treatment, probably of a stainless steel. If your price allowed, you could go for a Konosuke Swedish Stainless (they've been on special and have sold new for below your range before). You could also go for what I see in cheap sushi shops a lot: something like a Masamoto VG or similar: the typical M-V monosteel blade with a Western handle (Misono has three lines now, Masamoto at least 1-2, and there are others). This type of knife is almost guaranteed to be HRC 60 or under but still stiff enough and thin enough to do exactly what you want, while also hard enough (and soft enough) to hold a good mid-grit edge for proteins of all types and temperatures.

Let's see what others have to say. But the point is, for what you want, I can actually imagine that the "right" choice in the range will actually cost LESS than you'd expect what actually meeting your needs BETTER than several more expensive options in the real, day-to-day use.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

zizirex
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by zizirex » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Thank you for your input, ok that means stiffer one is better than the thin(flex) one for my application? I would like to buy Konosuke if it's around $250 because normally Konosuke cost CA$450++ here. But Konosuke aside, you said lower HRC is better? does it mean like Tojiro DP works fine? or PS60 is good enough? Masamoto VG is good but I hear it is a bit overpriced, I'm fine with a western handle. I also see that Misono Dragon is a good choice but it is Carbon steel.

salemj
Posts: 2683
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by salemj » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:10 pm

Oh, are you in Canada?

Many knives are considered "overpriced," but I'm always skeptical of this. My favorite example is a Suisin Inox gyuto, with the Konosuke HD and Masamoto KS just behind. For "what they are" in terms of materials, they seem EXTRAORDINARILY over priced. But for certain applications, they are simply hard to beat at any price, and they certainly feel WAY different than some very similar (in materials) but much different (in subtlety of design) options.

I'm not saying a Masamoto VG is some unicorn. But what I am saying is that I owned one and only recently sold it to someone for it to be his first "serious" knife. I stand by that that knife was absolutely worth what I paid for it. It just "worked" in all sorts of ways that several "better" knives would not have worked as well. That doesn't make it "better" than all of the other options...it just made it "better" for me under those specific circumstances (for me, it was essentially a "beater," and it was better than any other beater I've used at or below in price). In truth, there are at least four gyutos I can immediately name that I would consider "better" and "cheaper" as a gyuto...but I don't think any of those would have served me as well for what I used my Masamoto for, nor with the same durability and finesse, even though I'd recommend those other knives before the VG for many friends.

I think the same is true of some of these other blades. Years ago this was discussed on the forum. The fact is, there are tons of great "all-around" knives out now, especially at CKTG—the collection of great gyutos under 200 is astounding. But there are certain applications that I still think some of the more basic knives just excel at, even when "better" options (in terms of edge taking, or steel style, or fit and finish, or grind) exist. My point is, some of these makers know that to design something that does a lot of things really well in a professional setting means that it is NOT going to compete as well on paper in terms of materials or any of those other specific categories. But does that mean it should be cheaper than those other options? Cars come to mind: often, the better performer in traffic is not the better performer on track day. You don't realize that what you're paying for is not better specs or obvious exotic materials, but rather something that works well in all conditions based on lots of tested experience. Heck, jackets come to mind, too: living in the Pacific Northwest, people know that buying a jacket made from seemingly better "materials" for half the cost of a professional one may seem like an obvious choice, but if you talk to any professional, you immediately learn there is just no comparison.

All that means that "lower HRC" is NOT better. I don't think you should shop for specs. Other people will start to weigh in at some point, and they will highlight what "works" in real, professional settings. What I wrote above is a condensation of that knowledge based on what I've seen and read from those people before (and my own experience, but I'm a home cook, so my needs are very different). In this case, I really think a stamped monosteel suji from a reputable Japanese manufacturer is going to get you much closer to what you want than a pricier (or cheaper), hand-made, san mai blade with a more exclusive core steel. It will have some flex, but the flex will be consistent and predictable from heel to tip, which is almost never true with a clad blade; it will be thinner than most clad blades; it will likely have a slightly asymmetrical grind that will slice more predictably with more control, it will likely be stainless but still have decent grain and sharpening ability without chipping, and it will likely have a Western handle, which may help in a professional kitchen from time to time when dealing with protein. More than all of this, it will likely have an extremely predictable, very standard, but very, very versatile grind and edge profile, which is key for a professional.

Sorry for going on and on—just trying to clarify that what you need is a professional tool, so you should shop for that as specifically as possible!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

zizirex
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by zizirex » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:35 pm

yes, I live in Vancouver BC, and Knifewear and Ai&Om is the most famous knife shop here. Ok, seems like Monosteel is way to go then, I'm going to Washington, DC and NY in a couple week. I might see another choice while I'm in there. Maybe if I can get a good deal on Masamoto VG I'll consider it.

Cahudson42
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Cahudson42 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:12 am

With your knife skills, perhaps you would be able to easily take advantage of an assymetric grind and get those thin partially frozen slices? For this, the USD $90 Kanehide Bessaku comes to mind:
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kanehide1.html

The steel is semi-stainless, at HRC 60. Should require little extra care with proteins.

I did seal the handle by soaking it in 50/50 pure Tung oil (have around, as a woodworker) and turpentine. (I prefer turpentine over mineral spirits for this, but mineral spirits works too).

In my view, the Bessaku is somewhat under-appreciated, and a really nice knife for the $$. I also have the FKM 270 Suji - completely stainless. I use for cooked roasts, but have never used on anything partially frozen. Being softer, doing so doesn't seem like the best idea, compared to the Bessaku...

Others add their thoughts on the Bessaku vs. FKM?

Chefcallari
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Chefcallari » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:07 am

zizirex wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:35 pm
yes, I live in Vancouver BC, and Knifewear and Ai&Om is the most famous knife shop here. Ok, seems like Monosteel is way to go then, I'm going to Washington, DC and NY in a couple week. I might see another choice while I'm in there. Maybe if I can get a good deal on Masamoto VG I'll consider it.
I own a kohetsu AS 270 and its the greatest suji known to man lol

But if your looking for something cheaper... The fugiwara carbon suji... Had one in a 240.... It gets just stupid sharp and holds it pretty well.

zizirex
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by zizirex » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:06 pm

Chefcallari wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:07 am


I own a kohetsu AS 270 and its the greatest suji known to man lol

But if your looking for something cheaper... The fugiwara carbon suji... Had one in a 240.... It gets just stupid sharp and holds it pretty well.
how is the grind? is symmetrical right, is thin behind the edge or fairly thick like other non-laser knives.
I'm guessing it was made by Ohishi because I have AS Gyuto that very similar with it but mine came with Micarta handle.

Jason H
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Jason H » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:17 pm

Cahudson42 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:12 am
With your knife skills, perhaps you would be able to easily take advantage of an assymetric grind and get those thin partially frozen slices? For this, the USD $90 Kanehide Bessaku comes to mind:
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kanehide1.html

The steel is semi-stainless, at HRC 60. Should require little extra care with proteins.

I did seal the handle by soaking it in 50/50 pure Tung oil (have around, as a woodworker) and turpentine. (I prefer turpentine over mineral spirits for this, but mineral spirits works too).

In my view, the Bessaku is somewhat under-appreciated, and a really nice knife for the $$. I also have the FKM 270 Suji - completely stainless. I use for cooked roasts, but have never used on anything partially frozen. Being softer, doing so doesn't seem like the best idea, compared to the Bessaku...

Others add their thoughts on the Bessaku vs. FKM?

What purpose does the turpentine serve? Solvent?

Chefcallari
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Chefcallari » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:08 pm

zizirex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:06 pm
Chefcallari wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:07 am


I own a kohetsu AS 270 and its the greatest suji known to man lol

But if your looking for something cheaper... The fugiwara carbon suji... Had one in a 240.... It gets just stupid sharp and holds it pretty well.
how is the grind? is symmetrical right, is thin behind the edge or fairly thick like other non-laser knives.
I'm guessing it was made by Ohishi because I have AS Gyuto that very similar with it but mine came with Micarta handle.
Grind on which knife? Kohetsu or fujiwara?

Cahudson42
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Cahudson42 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:12 am

@jason

Yes, the turp thins out the Tung oil, and helps it to penetrate and soak in. After letting the handle soak for an hour or so in a jar of the mixture, remove and wipe off the excess, hang somehow to let the handle dry. May take a day or two..

If you don't like the smell of turp, use mineral spirits instead. I definitely prefer turpentine, as I think it penetrates better, and never leaves a white cloudy film as MS may.

If you want even more durability, use 1/3 Tung oil, 1/3 turp, and 1/3 of an old-fashioned phenolic-based spar varnish (Ace,Cabot). This makes a 'wiping varnish' similar to Waterlox. Soak and wipe the same way.

Jason H
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by Jason H » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:45 am

Cahudson42 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:12 am
@jason

Yes, the turp thins out the Tung oil, and helps it to penetrate and soak in. After letting the handle soak for an hour or so in a jar of the mixture, remove and wipe off the excess, hang somehow to let the handle dry. May take a day or two..

If you don't like the smell of turp, use mineral spirits instead. I definitely prefer turpentine, as I think it penetrates better, and never leaves a white cloudy film as MS may.

If you want even more durability, use 1/3 Tung oil, 1/3 turp, and 1/3 of an old-fashioned phenolic-based spar varnish (Ace,Cabot). This makes a 'wiping varnish' similar to Waterlox. Soak and wipe the same way.
Thanks!

zizirex
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Looking for Sujihiki

Post by zizirex » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:09 pm

Chefcallari wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:08 pm
zizirex wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:06 pm
Chefcallari wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:07 am


I own a kohetsu AS 270 and its the greatest suji known to man lol

But if your looking for something cheaper... The fugiwara carbon suji... Had one in a 240.... It gets just stupid sharp and holds it pretty well.
how is the grind? is symmetrical right, is thin behind the edge or fairly thick like other non-laser knives.
I'm guessing it was made by Ohishi because I have AS Gyuto that very similar with it but mine came with Micarta handle.
Grind on which knife? Kohetsu or fujiwara?
the Kohetsu... I'm not a big fan knife without bolster

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