All around workhorse

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ex1580
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by ex1580 »

Jeff B wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:28 pm
FisherMAn1298 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:27 am You began thinking workhorse, Morkitaka came to my mind, but ended up with something light and nimble. The Moritaka AS has a very sturdy spine that could handle those tough cuts and still do some lighter work too.....
Coming from a Wusthof and Chinese vegetable cleaver anything is going to seem light and nimble. Not a lot would consider a Moritaka a workhorse, a middle weight at best. Workhorse means very different things to different people. In the context of this thread I think "daily user" would be the more appropriate term.
The important thing, a PS60 will do anything a Moritaka will do just as well and the OP got a very nice new knife. Down the rabbit whole he goes! 8-)
You are absolutely correct! The term "daily user" would have been a much better description. "Workhorse" might be better reserved for a restaurant cook, which I am not. I want a knife that works really well at a lot of different things, but it's also kind of a toy, haha. I am very interested in that HAP40 steel too but it's quite a bit different from what I have now and I will save that for a later time (have you seen the Sukenari HAP40 Gyuto 240mm?).
Sam
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by salemj »

ex1580 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:59 pm
Jeff B wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:28 pm
FisherMAn1298 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:27 am You began thinking workhorse, Morkitaka came to my mind, but ended up with something light and nimble. The Moritaka AS has a very sturdy spine that could handle those tough cuts and still do some lighter work too.....
Coming from a Wusthof and Chinese vegetable cleaver anything is going to seem light and nimble. Not a lot would consider a Moritaka a workhorse, a middle weight at best. Workhorse means very different things to different people. In the context of this thread I think "daily user" would be the more appropriate term.
The important thing, a PS60 will do anything a Moritaka will do just as well and the OP got a very nice new knife. Down the rabbit whole he goes! 8-)
You are absolutely correct! The term "daily user" would have been a much better description. "Workhorse" might be better reserved for a restaurant cook, which I am not. I want a knife that works really well at a lot of different things, but it's also kind of a toy, haha. I am very interested in that HAP40 steel too but it's quite a bit different from what I have now and I will save that for a later time (have you seen the Sukenari HAP40 Gyuto 240mm?).
I have a Sukenari ZDP hairline, which is likely extremely similar. It is a good knife. I would describe it as a workhorse (hahaha). Seriously, though, it is as close to a genuine East-West hybrid that I own. The weight, style, and geometry of the knife reminds me a lot of a Wusthof, but the profile is more Japanese, and the steel is Japanese, and the edge is ever so slightly more Japanese...but actually kinda robust in the European style. So while the core steel is very hard and perhaps even brittle, it has a bit of extra metal behind the edge to make it feel a bit more durable. I have not had to sharpen the knife yet and the edge has no noticeable microchipping...and it has also held a fresh-off-the-stones feel for remarkably long. So while it feels crisp and brittle, it also feels durable. I imagine HAP40 to be similar in these regards.

The negative of its thicker geometry and edge is that this means it doesn't have the wow factor of knives that are more Japanese in style (ground thinner, lighter, with more finesse in the cut). I would describe it as having terrific penetration at the surface, but only very good follow-through in the cut compared to other $300+ knives. I sometimes use the Sukenari when doing board-heavy tasks (mincing garlic and herbs), or when stainless is a real priority (many small separate tasks where I may not want or have time to rinse off the knife over 20-30 minutes). I don't use it much for meat because I have much better slicers for both raw and cooked protein (where edge thickness and a more Japanese profile really excel), and I also don't use it much for harder veggies like carrots and cold onions, where thinner knives like an HD do a better job of gliding through.

This is all in contrast to a more pure-bread Japanese style gyuto, such as a Yoshikane or Konosuke SKD. I would NOT recommend one of these for you, but they are a great representation of the more "slicing" versus "chopping" design of Japanese gyutos, and they also have extremely wicked grinds and super-thin edges with very hard steels that are very rewarding but also require a very practiced technique to avoid issues.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by XexoX »

salemj wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:40 am I have a Sukenari ZDP hairline, which is likely extremely similar. It is a good knife. I would describe it as a workhorse (hahaha). Seriously, though, it is as close to a genuine East-West hybrid that I own. The weight, style, and geometry of the knife reminds me a lot of a Wusthof, but the profile is more Japanese, and the steel is Japanese, and the edge is ever so slightly more Japanese...but actually kinda robust in the European style. So while the core steel is very hard and perhaps even brittle, it has a bit of extra metal behind the edge to make it feel a bit more durable. I have not had to sharpen the knife yet and the edge has no noticeable microchipping...and it has also held a fresh-off-the-stones feel for remarkably long. So while it feels crisp and brittle, it also feels durable. I imagine HAP40 to be similar in these regards.

The negative of its thicker geometry and edge is that this means it doesn't have the wow factor of knives that are more Japanese in style (ground thinner, lighter, with more finesse in the cut). I would describe it as having terrific penetration at the surface, but only very good follow-through in the cut compared to other $300+ knives. I sometimes use the Sukenari when doing board-heavy tasks (mincing garlic and herbs), or when stainless is a real priority (many small separate tasks where I may not want or have time to rinse off the knife over 20-30 minutes). I don't use it much for meat because I have much better slicers for both raw and cooked protein (where edge thickness and a more Japanese profile really excel), and I also don't use it much for harder veggies like carrots and cold onions, where thinner knives like an HD do a better job of gliding through.

This is all in contrast to a more pure-bread Japanese style gyuto, such as a Yoshikane or Konosuke SKD. I would NOT recommend one of these for you, but they are a great representation of the more "slicing" versus "chopping" design of Japanese gyutos, and they also have extremely wicked grinds and super-thin edges with very hard steels that are very rewarding but also require a very practiced technique to avoid issues.
Thank you Mr. Salem. I wish I could keep all this info in my head (yours and the many others here), but it just doesn't want to stick. Heck, once a knife is out of the box, I usually can't remember which it is. Some are easily identifiable, but alas, most aren't, at least to my eye.
You can blame Mr. Suburban for my being here. :lol:
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ex1580
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by ex1580 »

The new knife arrived today and I gave it a whirl at dinner time and WOW, my Christmas list just got longer. This knife is pretty spectacular, especially coming from thicker/heavier knives as well as considering the price. It's a keeper for sure. I inspected the edge with my little microscope and determined that it needed a strop, after which I cubed onions and tomatoes and chopped/sliced carrots, celery, garlic, and even ran through the fresh herbs. This knife is very light and went through it all effortlessly (of course). The only thing slowing it down is me. I am going to need to refine my skills with this new edge and I look forward to it! After using a cleaver with a flat blade quite a bit I have to remember to chop with the flat spot on this new one (lightly) or push cut. I'll probably push cut everything in the future but I'm so used to chopping that sometimes it just happens.

This Kanehide ps60 240mm definitely doesn't feel as bombproof as a big German knife but that's OK, just a tradeoff for performance. I expected that. I didn't quite expect how big it is. I was so focused on the blade that I missed just how long the handle is and it makes it seem like a small sword when sitting next to an 8" Wusthof. This is just funny more than anything else and hopefully wont impact packing it for travel. 240mm is a lot of blade too and I may need a petty knife now, we will see. In the past with blades in the 200-210mm range I didn't feel I needed a smaller knife for anything but I did sometimes feel like I needed a bigger one. Now I have a bigger one and shopping I will go for a tall petty. Does CKTG need a home cook to test knives for them? Haha.
Sam
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by Jeff B »

ex1580 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:52 pm This Kanehide ps60 240mm definitely doesn't feel as bombproof as a big German knife but that's OK, just a tradeoff for performance. I expected that...
It's not "as" bomb proof but it's a lot tougher than it feels, you'll learn to trust it. That is the beauty of AEB-L steel, it is about as tough as it gets in a J-knife. Glad you made the decision you made, you picked a winner!
As far as a tall petty to bridge the gap take a look at this one. It's Blue 2 steel with stainless clad. Gihei Blue #2 Petty 170mm. He makes one in 150mm too if you want a little shorter. It will give you a chance to try a carbon steel which I think you will enjoy.
I let my brother try mine and he wouldn't give it back :twisted:, I had to buy another one.
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ex1580
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by ex1580 »

I am really hesitant about Aogami steel because I have a Tanaka Blue #2 Nashiji Bunka 170mm and I dented it on a squash. It's an amazing knife, but at the time I didn't know any better and I learned a hard lesson. I put it back in it's box for now because I just think "wow, that was stupid" when I see it.

For a petty I am OK with carbon but if something is stainless or semi stainless that is always a plus (or if it just has a good finish that helps protect it). I would like to keep the budget at less than the gyuto I just bought (but have you seen the Saji R-2 Petty 135mm!?!?). I'm not sure about size. I have a paring knife that's maybe 80 or 90 mm, so bigger than that, but not huge. 130-140 mm sounds about right, but I don't really know because I don't use one now. What I do know is that some of the paring knives I have used do OK at a lot of things on the board or above (Wusthof) and some only really do well above the board (MAC). I envision the petty to be used on the board.
Sam
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Re: All around workhorse

Post by ex1580 »

I've been thinking about this petty knife idea and I took an opportunity to try a new steel. HAP40 steel! I ordered the Gihei HAP40 Petty 150mm and will see how that goes next week when it arrives. I'll be busy hiding my credit card in the mean time. There are a lot of nice petty knives on the site but so many of them are out of stock. I'd have bought the Takamura Chromax Petty in a heartbeat if it was available.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gihape15.html
Sam
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